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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1321
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I've had people Surgical my dredger. It's not a smart play, but it is a thing some people do. There's a difference between what people shouldn't do and what they actually do do.

    FWIW my Shamblings Shells aren't going anywhere. No Once Upon A Times for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  2. #1322

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Once Upon A Time does contradict the philosophy of the deck. I like what seems to do for it, though. And, it's just exciting for me to see spoiled cards that might push the deck to be more competitive. Yes, it might very well be not great. I do enjoy the prospect of its spiciness nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Experience matters, you're replacing the engine of a deck with a card that can be countered or discarded, that is completely antithetical to what makes the deck strong vs its good match ups.
    Great point about it being interactive, as I mentioned earlier. I still don't understand this whole experience story you keep mentioning, though. I've played the deck a lot over the years, but I don't use my experience to polarize this discussion about what's right and wrong. It's too ambiguous, and it comes off as arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I don't think people Surgical Extraction Dredgers, I KNOW people Surgical Extraction Dredgers because I've seen it. Whether or not that is the best stratgy vs Manaless is irrelevant, having your first Dredger RFGed is something that you must have an answer to - and that answer is generally redundancy.
    It totally is relevant, actually, if you want to win competitively. If you start to construct a deck and make decisions based on the irrationality of your opponents, you will end up with a mess of a list that doesn't put up the results against good players. Their bad decisions shouldn't dictate you to make bad decisions as well. Adding or subtracting dredgers because of dubious extractions is bad decision-making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Go ahead and cut Shambling Shells and Golgari Thugs and see what happens, it's only a matter of observation. People have tried every thing under the sun to cut Shambling Shell, Serum Powder was already there and it's uncounterable, and it has never worked out.
    I never wrote that I cut Golgari Thug, but I did write that it was sub-optimal. Shambling Shell is bad, and perhaps Once Upon a Time is bad as well. I have tested Shell, and it's garbage. Because of this, I consider the list incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I cut Once Upon a Time fron the deck already because it's not particularly helpful and feeds into counter spells. It's worse than Gitaxian Probe, and that card wasn't even that great. So good luck.
    Agreed. And Probe was almost great. It needed to be an instant, but it would have been banned sooner. I don't need luck though, as I don't play the deck anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I've had people Surgical my dredger. It's not a smart play, but it is a thing some people do. There's a difference between what people shouldn't do and what they actually do do.
    And I've had people stifle my Phantasmagorian? The difference is that, actually, most of the time the good players win, and the bad players lose

    So, I was wondering about what all choices there are for lethal DR targets: Devil and Giant. Should we consider Syr Konrad as well? I mean, they all are fatal after a Spy or Griselbrand, usually. What about early conditions where our graves are too shallow? An early Konrad shuts off the mirror matchup, which is cool. He also is the best target against Elesh, which is hate against us in Reanimator. Thoughts?

  3. #1323
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I usually play Flayer of the Hatebound because against a tabernacle itís a little better than giant. I didnít know konrad I ll have a look to it. Nice to see what we think fixed can still be discussed

  4. #1324

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    People will gamble on extracting the first dredger, because if you don't have another then you're stuck in top deck mode. Stripping business out of the deck tends to be a lost cause, you are so redundant on business that the deck doesn't care if it loses any one set. The strategy works especially well vs people who cut Shambling Shell, because they don't have the 2nd dredger in hand to keep going. No card you can add to the deck gives it enough value in order to open it up to another angle of attack from the starting hand, that is why Shambling Shell gets played.

    I am fine with Lotleth, black creatures feed Ichorid and Hogaak so they are preferable.

  5. #1325

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    People will gamble on extracting the first dredger, because if you don't have another then you're stuck in top deck mode. Stripping business out of the deck tends to be a lost cause, you are so redundant on business that the deck doesn't care if it loses any one set. The strategy works especially well vs people who cut Shambling Shell, because they don't have the 2nd dredger in hand to keep going. No card you can add to the deck gives it enough value in order to open it up to another angle of attack from the starting hand, that is why Shambling Shell gets played.
    Renaming bad plays as gambles doesn't change anything here. And, it's not a sound strategy by any means. Good players know that Manaless cannot get off the ground until Ichorid and Narco hit the field. Dredge all day with as many Shells as you want; you won't be digging that deep anyways with them. Double surgical or surgical and snap or surgical and dreadhorde on recursive creatures cripples this deck harder than targeting dredgers and gambling that you don't have Street Wraith AND a different dredger in hand, which you naturally pitch next turn anyways and start the engine up. This is all obvious, so I'd suggest against making deck construction choices hoping your opponents don't know how to play against Manaless.

    If you decide to run Shambling Shell for the value and consistency, than that's a different topic

  6. #1326

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    I usually play Flayer of the Hatebound because against a tabernacle itís a little better than giant. I didnít know konrad I ll have a look to it. Nice to see what we think fixed can still be discussed
    Yeah, Flayer is better against Tabernacle for sure. But, this is where Ichorid shines because of its haste.

    Konrad seems really decent against, as mentioned, Elesh Norn. It also protects your grave from late sweeps.

  7. #1327

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    Renaming bad plays as gambles doesn't change anything here. And, it's not a sound strategy by any means. Good players know that Manaless cannot get off the ground until Ichorid and Narco hit the field. Dredge all day with as many Shells as you want; you won't be digging that deep anyways with them. Double surgical or surgical and snap or surgical and dreadhorde on recursive creatures cripples this deck harder than targeting dredgers and gambling that you don't have Street Wraith AND a different dredger in hand, which you naturally pitch next turn anyways and start the engine up. This is all obvious, so I'd suggest against making deck construction choices hoping your opponents don't know how to play against Manaless.

    If you decide to run Shambling Shell for the value and consistency, than that's a different topic
    I am actually really surprised that you haven't seen this, if you do the math on the odds of having Street Wraith in hand or a second Dedger with only 12 in the deck it's not that bad of a chance to win outright on tempo. Most people who sandbag Surgical Extraction get run over because the deck just plows through them with its redundancy fwiw, Hogaak upped that game quite a lot. Letting the deck get rolling is its own risk, IMO.

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