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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1381

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by idc1993 View Post
    What are people's opinions on dredgerless hands with Once Upon a Time?
    The card kind of works like a mulligan, but if it doesn't hit it whithin the 5 cards or the following one, then it's a BIG screw.
    Also, what about hands that have a dredger but not Troll? Discard and OUAT after to look for Wraith or do it before to expand the chances of a bigger dredger at the cost of showing the opponent what we're playing?
    The first game action we take will show what we are on. We will, hopefully, move to discard, then discard a dredger. If we have OUAT, I think we can use it before we discard. The problem is that, if it is countered, we have been set back a turn from discarding. If it is not countered, we will be replacing it in our hand, so we will still be able to discard. However, any way you slice it, we are not really giving up information about what we are on, because nobody else moves to discard like we do. Casting OUAT just before moving to discard does not really tell them anything they wouldn't know. There is no real window of secrecy there.

  2. #1382

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    The first game action we take will show what we are on. We will, hopefully, move to discard, then discard a dredger. If we have OUAT, I think we can use it before we discard. The problem is that, if it is countered, we have been set back a turn from discarding. If it is not countered, we will be replacing it in our hand, so we will still be able to discard. However, any way you slice it, we are not really giving up information about what we are on, because nobody else moves to discard like we do. Casting OUAT just before moving to discard does not really tell them anything they wouldn't know. There is no real window of secrecy there.
    The way I see it, we can either play OUAT during their upkeep to narrow their ability to counter down to Force, but have them spend their turn already knowing what we're playing (since we reveal the card), or we can let them go on with their turn still oblivious and cast it during ours, but have a higher chance of getting it countered by Daze/Pierce.
    Also, even if unaware of our deck, an opponent seeing us cast OUAT during our turn before making a land drop might be tempted to counter it by reasoning that we probably kept a good landless hand and are attempting to fix it by finding a land.
    All in all, I think it's safer to cast it during their 1st upkeep, especially since it reduces interaction down to Force and discard (and anyone with targeted discard should be starting the game by casting it anyway). Plus, no one should Force OUAT unless they already know what we're on.
    If they do know, either by having us put them on them play or by it being game 2/3, it might be worth it to discard 1st.
    Last edited by idc1993; 02-14-2020 at 01:09 PM.

  3. #1383
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Isn't Balustrade Spy + Thassa's Oracle pretty good for this deck? I'm also curious if Bazaar Trademage could be a DR target that supercharges dredging and also feeds the Force of Will/Negation sideboard plan. It makes me think Sphinx of Foresight could be another option instead of Once Upon a Time to smooth out early turns, and again feed the Force plan.

    Just some thoughts I had while brewing a terrible Vengevine deck.
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  4. #1384
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Why DR Bazaar Trademage when you have access to Balustrade Spy, Griselbrand or Whirlpool Rider/Drake? Those basically say "flip my library" rather than "Time Walk twice".

    Oracle is a fine wincon. I play one together w/ Flayer at the moment. Flayer's still the more robust option.
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  5. #1385
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Why DR Bazaar Trademage when you have access to Balustrade Spy, Griselbrand or Whirlpool Rider/Drake? Those basically say "flip my library" rather than "Time Walk twice".

    Oracle is a fine wincon. I play one together w/ Flayer at the moment. Flayer's still the more robust option.
    Without any experience with manaless, I didn't realize the Whirlpool creatures do the same but better. I was just thinking that DR > Balustrade Spy might not happen often enough to make it reliable as a combo finish. My thought was that if you have a DR but no Spy in the graveyard you would need to turbo-charge your dredging. Currently Street Wraith does that to get an extra dredge for your turn, but the draw 2 would allow you to get 2 extra dredges out of it. *shrug* It was just an idea, apparently not nearly as good as other options.
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  6. #1386

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Oracle is a fine wincon. I play one together w/ Flayer at the moment. Flayer's still the more robust option.
    I suppose you run Oracle alongside Flayer to get around any possibility of having your combo interfered with by the likes of Leyline of Sanctity or Glacial Chasm.

    If that's the case, why not just run Ashen Rider in that slot?
    It gets through any eventual speed bumps messing with your combo and, like Flayer, is a superior DR target for beatdown if you haven't got a Spy in your yard.

    Don't get me wrong, I love how Oracle gets there plain and simple without and around any shenanigans, but it is utterly useless (aside from being Force fodder) pre-Spy.

    The extra work you need to put into Rider/Flayer is nigh irrelevant post-Spy and they still pull double duty by also being relevant before it.

  7. #1387
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I just prefer "I win this turn" (Flayer) over "I probably win in a few turns" (Ashen Rider). I think the extra hoops you have to jump through are worth it.

    @Mr. Safety You dredge into Spy often enough for it not to matter. Other than that you still have your beats and Hogaaks.
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  8. #1388

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I just prefer "I win this turn" (Flayer) over "I probably win in a few turns" (Ashen Rider). I think the extra hoops you have to jump through are worth it.
    But what I'm saying is that you still "win this turn" after Spy by DR'ing Ashen Rider to remove whatever's stopping Flayer and THEN DR'ing Flayer+Troll.

    I'm advocating running Flayer + Rider instead of Flayer + Oracle since the benefit of Rider in Oracle's slot is that it's also a great DR target before Spy whereas Oracle is dead in that scenario.

  9. #1389
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I get your point but don't necessarily agree with it
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  10. #1390

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I get your point but don't necessarily agree with it
    Nothing wrong with that. It just seemed like you misunderstood what I meant and I just wanted to clarity.

  11. #1391
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by idc1993 View Post
    Nothing wrong with that. It just seemed like you misunderstood what I meant and I just wanted to clarity.
    And you were right about that. You clarified it well
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  12. #1392
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Without any experience with manaless, I didn't realize the Whirlpool creatures do the same but better. I was just thinking that DR > Balustrade Spy might not happen often enough to make it reliable as a combo finish. My thought was that if you have a DR but no Spy in the graveyard you would need to turbo-charge your dredging. Currently Street Wraith does that to get an extra dredge for your turn, but the draw 2 would allow you to get 2 extra dredges out of it. *shrug* It was just an idea, apparently not nearly as good as other options.
    I've run Whirlpool Rider for a while because it pitches to Force. I'd been considering Prime Speaker Zegana because it pitches to Force AND Force, but the downside is probably prohibitive.
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  13. #1393

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Silvermote Ghoul + Creeping Chill > Prized Amalgam ?

    edit: Silversmote

  14. #1394

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    Silvermote Ghoul + Creeping Chill > Prized Amalgam ?

    edit: Silversmote
    I don't think it is worth it, but I suppose it is worth testing.

    They both enter the battlefield tapped.
    PA is a 3/3. SG is a 3/1.
    There is way to take advantage of SG's activated ability in Manaless (unless we run LED).
    If SG dies, we have to hit another Creeping Chill to get it out again.
    If PA dies, we can likely get it again because we recur Ichorids and Nether Shadows pretty regularly, as well as triggering with Narcomoebas. We also trigger PA with Dread Return, so DR on Hateflayer allows us to hit for 4, plus whatever Amalgams are in our graveyard.

    So, I think a 3/3 that enters from a number of different plays is better than a 3/1 that enters from only one type of play.

    However, if LED is brought into the mix to generate mana, then it could get interested to get that extra draw plus the death trigger, though I think that plan is not really worth it. Manaless is similar to Burn in the sense that the idea is to run a lot of redundant effects to achieve consistency rather than looking to hit a particular combo of cards.

  15. #1395

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    I don't think it is worth it, but I suppose it is worth testing.

    They both enter the battlefield tapped.
    PA is a 3/3. SG is a 3/1.
    There is way to take advantage of SG's activated ability in Manaless (unless we run LED).
    If SG dies, we have to hit another Creeping Chill to get it out again.
    If PA dies, we can likely get it again because we recur Ichorids and Nether Shadows pretty regularly, as well as triggering with Narcomoebas. We also trigger PA with Dread Return, so DR on Hateflayer allows us to hit for 4, plus whatever Amalgams are in our graveyard.

    So, I think a 3/3 that enters from a number of different plays is better than a 3/1 that enters from only one type of play.

    However, if LED is brought into the mix to generate mana, then it could get interested to get that extra draw plus the death trigger, though I think that plan is not really worth it. Manaless is similar to Burn in the sense that the idea is to run a lot of redundant effects to achieve consistency rather than looking to hit a particular combo of cards.
    The problem with PA is that it's not really a recurring creature like Ichorid, at least in the same way. PA just comes in because another creature did, while SG can come in on its own with a few CC activations. I never liked PA because of its inability to come in without a buddy. Opponents can just sit on Narcs, Ichorids, Nethers and ripping them with Snapped Surgicals, while just completely ignoring PA. At least with CC and SG, together they provide another body that can draw Surgical attention, especially with a Hagaak looming. Definitely worth testing.

  16. #1396

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    That is a fair point. So, a list like this:

    2 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Silversmote Ghoul

    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Dread Return
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    One problem though is that the green card count is down to 8 (2 Shell, 4 Troll, 2 Hogaak). It is a little tricky jamming both Chill and the new Ghoul into the list while keeping the green count high enough for Force of Vigor out of the sideboard. I am not sure what to cut from here to help with that.

  17. #1397

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I love running 4 Hogaak, as they have built in DRs. It's more economical and can pitch to FoV. Since its printing, I've shaved the DR combo down to 2 DR and 2 Gris/Spy with Flayer/Lotleth in the sideboard.

  18. #1398

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    That is a fair point. So, a list like this:

    2 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Silversmote Ghoul

    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Dread Return
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    One problem though is that the green card count is down to 8 (2 Shell, 4 Troll, 2 Hogaak). It is a little tricky jamming both Chill and the new Ghoul into the list while keeping the green count high enough for Force of Vigor out of the sideboard. I am not sure what to cut from here to help with that.
    If Bloodghast wasn't good enough for Manaless, then I doubt Silversmote Ghoul is. While Creeping Chill is an improvement on Dakmor Salavage, the problem is that the deck can hardly afford to cut 8 cards for the whole package.

  19. #1399

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    It is hard to cut cards to make the package fit, but I think that Chill+Ghoul is a bit better than the Bloodghast plan, mostly because we do not need to waste our dredge on the land.

    I have been thinking about moving the deck to more of a beatdown plan. I also tried to reduce the amount of cards that need to be in hand to use (so there are only Force of Vigor and Once Upon a Time in the sideboard).

    I did a little testing this morning. Here is the list I am testing with:

    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4 Silversmote Ghoul
    4 Prized Amalgam

    2 Whirlpool Drake
    4 Dread Return

    4 Phantasmagorian

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    Sideboard:
    4 Force of Vigor
    3 Once Upon a Time
    4 Progenitus
    4 Leyline of the Void

    The green count in the main deck is 10. There are no Street Wraiths. There are two Whirlpool Drakes for speed with Dread Return, but there is no "I win" combo. Having the Silversmote Ghouls is the deck is pretty nice. I was able to dredge Amalgam + Ghoul + Chill in one go. The Ghoul entered at the end of my turn, and the Amalgam at the end of my opponent's turn.

    I like having an "I win" combo in the deck, so I am considering cutting down on the Phantasmagorians and/or Hogaaks (maybe -2 Hogaak, and switch out the Whirlpool Drakes so that there can be 3 Balustrade Spy and 1 Thassa's Oracle). This would drop the main deck green count to 8, but there are options in the sideboard to get is to 16+. (Also, the sideboard is not set, just an idea to get started.)

  20. #1400
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'd shave like a dredger or a DR in order to run a Thassa's Oracle/Flayer of the Hatebound. Adding that "I win"-button costs you literally just 1 slot, which simply must be worth it. And by doing so you can revert back to Balustrade Spies.

    The thing I look for is a way to eliminate cards that possibly do nothing in certain scenario's. In that regard, however good Street Wraith is, the effect you run it for only works if you have it in your opening hand. While I'm not sure the new guy is the way to go I do think that if you want to incorporate the new package cutting SW would be the way to do it.

    I'd suggest the following 60:
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Silversmote Ghoul
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    3 Dread Return
    2 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound (b/c synergy w/ the crazy number of recurring creatures you run)

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge From Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    Now I'm not sure that cutting SW is the way to go (we all know how powerful it is to SW in response to Surgical/Macabre on your dredger), but this is how'd I'd go about testing it.
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