Page 71 of 72 FirstFirst ... 2161676869707172 LastLast
Results 1,401 to 1,420 of 1423

Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1401

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    That list looks pretty good. You summed up my ideas also. I was sitting at the table looking at the cards trying to figure out which to cut, and SW ended up on the chopping block. Then it was a matter of determining what to do about the combo package.

    I think Flayer is a pretty good choice, especially with Chill in the list. I think Flayer is also better than the M21 dragon, though people on Reddit were thinking otherwise. What do you think about the new dragon?

  2. #1402

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I'd shave like a dredger or a DR in order to run a Thassa's Oracle/Flayer of the Hatebound. Adding that "I win"-button costs you literally just 1 slot, which simply must be worth it. And by doing so you can revert back to Balustrade Spies.

    The thing I look for is a way to eliminate cards that possibly do nothing in certain scenario's. In that regard, however good Street Wraith is, the effect you run it for only works if you have it in your opening hand. While I'm not sure the new guy is the way to go I do think that if you want to incorporate the new package cutting SW would be the way to do it.

    I'd suggest the following 60:
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Silversmote Ghoul
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    3 Dread Return
    2 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound (b/c synergy w/ the crazy number of recurring creatures you run)

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge From Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    Now I'm not sure that cutting SW is the way to go (we all know how powerful it is to SW in response to Surgical/Macabre on your dredger), but this is how'd I'd go about testing it.
    Removing Street Wraith is cheeky, but you'd probably increase your average speed and redundancy with Creeping Chill and Silversmote Ghoul that way. Cutting Shambling Shell is always a red flag for me, considering how much the utility of Phantasmagorian decreases post board I would only play 3 of it over 3 Shambling Shell. The magic number for Force of Vigor is 15, the MD should be able to support that number over SBing Once Upon a Time (I'd rather SB Street Wraith anyway).

  3. #1403

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Removing Street Wraith is cheeky, but you'd probably increase your average speed and redundancy with Creeping Chill and Silversmote Ghoul that way. Cutting Shambling Shell is always a red flag for me, considering how much the utility of Phantasmagorian decreases post board I would only play 3 of it over 3 Shambling Shell. The magic number for Force of Vigor is 15, the MD should be able to support that number over SBing Once Upon a Time (I'd rather SB Street Wraith anyway).
    I am not sure I agree about Phantasmagorian, but I think that it may just be a personal bias - I love that card. 3 copies may well be enough. I will run this list the next time I test (likely tonight).

    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4 Silversmote Ghoul
    4 Prized Amalgam

    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    2 Balustrade Spy
    3 Dread Return

    3 Phantasmagorian

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    Sideboard:
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Faerie Macabre
    2 Ashen Rider
    1 Progenitus
    4 Serum Powder

    Instead of Street Wraith in the sideboard, Faerie can be used to protect ourselves vs. Surgical or target the opponent's cards. It is not as effective as Street Wraith or Leyline of the Void, but it serves two purposes.

    I am not sure about the Serum Powders. There are a lot of fun cards that could go in that slot, like Chancellor of the Annex, Vengeful Pharaoh, Leyline of Sanctity, Mindbreak Trap, etc. Those slots could easily change depending on the meta, but the previous 11 slots do work against a lot of the normal decks.

  4. #1404
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,908

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Swapping out a Phantasmagorian for an extra Shambling Shell is a change I can get behind. Good idea!

    Speaking of Terror of the Peaks...

    https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/c...r-of-the-peaks

    It does trigger on zombie tokens, and Hogaak... It doesn't do damage on its own though, where Flayer can be a solid 9 damage w/ a Cabal Therapy.

    Flayer is a little bit harder to kill though. But w/ TotP you can just cast Hogaak a few times if you're all out of Dread Returns. I'm not sure yet
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  5. #1405
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Chilltown
    Posts

    946

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Speaking of Terror of the Peaks...

    It does trigger on zombie tokens, and Hogaak... It doesn't do damage on its own though, where Flayer can be a solid 9 damage w/ a Cabal Therapy.

    Flayer is a little bit harder to kill though. But w/ TotP you can just cast Hogaak a few times if you're all out of Dread Returns.
    Wouldn't you still be able to loop Hogaaks with a Flayer on the battlefield? I guess one advantage to the dragon is you can cast those Hogaaks out of your hand—it doesn't only trigger when things come back from the dead. I think having greater resilience and built-in damage makes Flayer stronger, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's something I'm missing. Last time I played the deck I was running Lotleth Giant, anyway, so maybe I'm just behind the times.

    I've been a bit out of the loop lately. Is anyone still running a blue suite in the sideboard? I feel like I keep trying to reinvent the wheel, but it'd be pretty dreamy to run two quads of Forces someday.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  6. #1406

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Wouldn't you still be able to loop Hogaaks with a Flayer on the battlefield? I guess one advantage to the dragon is you can cast those Hogaaks out of your hand—it doesn't only trigger when things come back from the dead. I think having greater resilience and built-in damage makes Flayer stronger, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's something I'm missing. Last time I played the deck I was running Lotleth Giant, anyway, so maybe I'm just behind the times.

    I've been a bit out of the loop lately. Is anyone still running a blue suite in the sideboard? I feel like I keep trying to reinvent the wheel, but it'd be pretty dreamy to run two quads of Forces someday.
    Re: looping Hogaaks - you can, but it doesn't do damage because Hogaak enters off the stack when cast, not the graveyard.

  7. #1407
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,908

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Basically, w/ TotP you don't need any more DRs to burn down your opponent that turn where you would w/ Flayer. Although that could be up for debate with the addition of 4 Creeping Chill and 8 3 power creatures that ETB on your EoT after you DR Balustrade Spy. Plus you can CT Flayer to make 21 damage w/ a full set of Chills. Or 18 w/ 3 Chills if your opponent like fetched twice or fetched & FoW'd.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  8. #1408

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Basically, w/ TotP you don't need any more DRs to burn down your opponent that turn where you would w/ Flayer. Although that could be up for debate with the addition of 4 Creeping Chill and 8 3 power creatures that ETB on your EoT after you DR Balustrade Spy. Plus you can CT Flayer to make 21 damage w/ a full set of Chills. Or 18 w/ 3 Chills if your opponent like fetched twice or fetched & FoW'd.
    The combo kill creature seems like a small part of the deck to bother micro managing, I've tested most of them and still think just being black for Hogaak/Ichorid is probably more important than how good the actual kill condition is. I might be more inclined towards one of the others now that I'm not running 2 Lotleth Giant for redundancy, but energy is probably better spent elsewhere than fiddling with a one of.

  9. #1409
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,908

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Agreed
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  10. #1410
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Chilltown
    Posts

    946

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by notkevin View Post
    Re: looping Hogaaks - you can, but it doesn't do damage because Hogaak enters off the stack when cast, not the graveyard.
    Good catch! Thank you! Like I said, it's been a while since I've taken the deck for a spin.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  11. #1411

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    whoops, my bad.
    Last edited by Final Fortune; 06-18-2020 at 08:13 AM.

  12. #1412

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    With the Creeping Chill and Silversmote package, does anyone else find themselves SBing out Narcomoebas at all? I generally cut the Dread Return targets before anything else, but whenever I'm bringing in 8 cards or so Narcomoeba seems to be the most redundant slot now. I started off cutting the whole Creeping Chill and Silversmote package, but the problem I found was that I never had 11 cards to bring in for one match up so the DR targets just sat there as low value cards. Which brings me to the next point, maybe we should be running Griselbrand and Iona??? over the combo kill, just so that cutting one or two of the DR creatures doesn't reduce the value of the others so much? Griselbrand draws such an absurd number of cards that the Cabal Therapies, Creeping Chills and board of creatures can close out the game by themselves. Iona is probably win more, but maybe Ashen Rider or Terastadon to increase the green count?

  13. #1413

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Griselbrand draws such an absurd number of cards that the Cabal Therapies, Creeping Chills and board of creatures can close out the game by themselves. Iona is probably win more, but maybe Ashen Rider or Terastadon to increase the green count?
    I started looking through scryfall for options. I don't know though. I think the near-automatic win from the combo is tough to move away from. Your post did inspire an idea though (also moving away from the combo):

    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    3 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4 Silversmote Ghoul
    4 Prized Amalgam

    4 Bloodghast
    3 Dakmor Salvage

    3 Phantasmagorian

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    Sideboard:
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Faerie Macabre
    2 Ashen Rider
    1 Progenitus
    4 Serum Powder

    Put the Silversmote and Bloodghast packages in, dropping Dread Return, its targets, and 1 Narcomoeba. I haven't tested with this list yet.

    Concerning the options I found on scryfall so far (some good, some bad, just to keep some options in mind and maybe spark some further ideas):

    Griselbrand

    This can draw cards, gain life (Silversmote Ghoul), and beat down. Pitches to Unmask.

    Iona

    This can shut down a large number of decks.

    Ashen Rider

    This pitches to Unmask. It is strong against Show and Tell.

    Terastadon

    Pitches to Force of Vigor. Good for clearing problematic permanents.

    Hoverguard Sweepers

    Pitches to Force of Will. Good against creatures. Not a particularly good choice though.

    Tishana, Voice of Thunder
    Prime Speaker Zegana

    Both of those are dependent on the number of creatures we control when they enter. They allow us to draw, and they pitch to both Forces.

    Craterhoof Behemoth

    This pitches to Force of Vigor. However, it is also pretty dependent on us having a fair number of creatures on the battlefield.

    End-Raze Forerunners

    Similar to Craterhoof.

    Flame-Kin Zealot

    This is similar to Craterhoof/End-Raze. We need fewer creatures for it to make an impact, but it does not pitch. Flayer is almost certainly better due to the existence of things like Ensnaring Bridge.

    Hellkite Overlord

    8 flying, hasty, trample damage is pretty strong, and this pitches to Force of Vigor and Unmask.

    Empyrial Archangel

    This is weaker than Iona, but she pitches to both Forces.

    Sphinx Sovereign

    This pitches to Force of Will and Unmask. It has some extra utility with Silversmote Ghoul, but it is really too slow compared to other options.

    Celestial Force

    This is not really helpful, but it does have some interaction with Silversmote, so I am including it here.

    Torgaar, Famine Incarnate

    Pitches to Unmask. Something to keep in mind against life gaining decks, should any become popular due to the new cards (the 1 mana white one that makes angels and Vito). It can also help against something like Burn, and could trigger Silversmote Ghoul if we are at 7 or lower.

    Vengeful Pharaoh

    This doesn't need DR. It pitches to Unmask. It helps against creatures.

    Additionally, Street Wraith could go back in in some number. Once Upon a Time could also be considered.

    I will browse Scryfall more later.

  14. #1414
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,908

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    If you're no longer interested in resolving DR, why still bother with Cabal Therapy..? That frees up some extra slot for I-dunno-what. Maybe dump Street Wraith back in? Or round all 3's back up to 4.

    Also, this is crazy and I love it
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  15. #1415

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    If you're no longer interested in resolving DR, why still bother with Cabal Therapy..? That frees up some extra slot for I-dunno-what. Maybe dump Street Wraith back in? Or round all 3's back up to 4.

    Also, this is crazy and I love it
    Interesting idea. Also, if we remove Therapy, then Narcomoeba becomes pretty bad. I wonder if those slots could be better used. We already have Nether Shadow, Ichorid, Silversmote Ghoul, and Bloodghast to trigger Prized Amalgam, which is mostly what Narcomoeba does for us if DR and CT are out.

    EDIT:

    I present the following for consideration:

    Utility:
    Gigapede

    Lifegain:
    Firemane Angel
    Soul Spike
    Spinning Darkness
    Needlebite Trap

    Recurring Creatures:
    Scourge of Nel Toth
    Ashen Ghoul
    Scrapheap Scrounger
    Nim Devourer
    Nether Traitor
    Despoiler of Souls

    From Hand:
    Delraich
    Summoning Trap
    Contagion
    Unmask
    Force of Despair
    Mindbreak Trap

    Leylines:
    Leyline of the Void
    Leyline of Sanctity
    Leyline of Vitality
    Leyline of Combustion
    Leyline of the Meek

    Another list:

    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4 Silversmote Ghoul
    4 Prized Amalgam

    2 Ashen Ghoul
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Dakmor Salvage

    3 Phantasmagorian

    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    Sideboard:
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Ashen Rider
    4 Serum Powder
    Last edited by Whoshim; 06-25-2020 at 08:38 PM.

  16. #1416
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,908

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Narcomoeba isn't terrible though. Having a flyer can be crucial when playing vs. anything that can make an EoT Marit Lage

    I wish we could cut the Shambling Shells, but there aren't many other runnable cards that can be pitched to FoV. I mean, as a dredger we don't really need it anymore when you run the Bloodghast package. I enjoy that we're making a whole new take on Horde Mode . I imagine we could also take your previous list and just swap out the CTs for a set of Ashen Ghoul. That'd leave us with...
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    3 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4 Silversmote Ghoul
    4 Prized Amalgam

    4 Ashen Ghoul
    4 Bloodghast
    3 Dakmor Salvage

    3 Phantasmagorian

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Creeping Chill

    Although you might want to go like 3 Ashen Ghoul and add a 4th Narcomoeba, I dunno. One good thing about Narcomoeba is that it can block quite some stuff without killing it, so your Bridges don't die as a result of blocking (or getting blocked). So there's that to consider as a sort of pro.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  17. #1417

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Although you might want to go like 3 Ashen Ghoul and add a 4th Narcomoeba, I dunno. One good thing about Narcomoeba is that it can block quite some stuff without killing it, so your Bridges don't die as a result of blocking (or getting blocked). So there's that to consider as a sort of pro.
    Yeah, I goldfished a couple of games, and I did miss the Narcomoebas. I think that 4 of those and 3 Ashen Ghouls is probably a good place to start. I don't think having more Ashen Ghouls than Dakmor Salvages is a good idea.

  18. #1418

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    You're going to lose too much time to dredging 2, playing Dakmor Salvage and activating Ashen Ghoul, what makes Silversmote Ghoul good is that it doesn't cost you 4 Dredge or reduce your hand size.

    Cabal Therapy punishes fast decks who have slow start, which are your biggest problem. If you want to play "horde mode" then I think just cutting the combo creatures is enough as Prized Amalgram, Silver Smote Ghoul and Hogaak, Risen Acropolis are a lot of added beaters compared to just the Ichorids, Zombie Tokens and Golgari Grave Trolls of old.

    I doubt the combo kill is even necessary for the fundamental turn anymore, to me it has always been insurance vs Moat effects and with Creeping Chill I even question that thinking.

  19. #1419
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,908

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    You could always cut the DR package down to 3 DR, 2 Flayer. Saves another slot over 2 Spy/1 Flayer
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  20. #1420

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    You're going to lose too much time to dredging 2, playing Dakmor Salvage and activating Ashen Ghoul, what makes Silversmote Ghoul good is that it doesn't cost you 4 Dredge or reduce your hand size.
    While it may be too slow if that were the only reason we were playing it, the Bloodghasts make it pretty worth it. If you hit 2+ Bloodghasts early, then you have access to 1 mana to pay for a hasty 3/1 the following turn. For longer matches, I think that it is worth it to get the value from the Ashen Ghoul over Cabal Therapy. If we aren't trying to cast Dread Return, then I think it is better to go with Ghoul over Therapy. I may be completely wrong, but it seems pretty good so far. Having access to Bloodghasts + Ashen Ghoul feels like a nice extra line of attack in my (very limited but increasing) testing.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)