(I'm assuming we're talking about E's list with a combo Dread Return package & Vengeful P, if not please correct me)Originally Posted by gRR!!
In my experience with the Blue FOW version;
Maybe, they're actually very similar. I prefer the blue but I'm not sure one could be called better.
And Occasionally.
The thing is, most of the time your wins are simply coming from beating on your opponent and using therapy when you can. Both decks do this.
The Game2/3's where hate comes in, Force/Shoal is superior IMO, but only if you have one in hand with another blue (obviously), so the answer has to be a conditional one. I can't honestly say that the blue FOW version is strictly better, as you will draw a blank a lot of the time and the hate will stick, but I will say that it has won me games I had no right to win, like those times you're playing against a fast combo or storm deck.
I get what you are saying and the LED plan is cute. I am by no means saying that it is good or great. I am not opposed to trying different and new things. I agree that you can't board in both the Blue cards and the LED's as you end up diluting your deck and that just leads to more losses. You have to choose whether you want to fight hate or race. It also depends on the hate and matchup. Also being able to actually have a turn 1 on the play can be big especially if they think it is a free time walk to put you on the play. I had a game where I passed with Narcomoeba and 2x Amalgams. I combo'd out the next turn before the hate. It doesn't always happen that way. Having led in hand can turn on a flipped lootings as well. They feel like gas in the deck. It is something I will be messing with but if I ran it again I would change up some slots. I don't think there is a best 75 for this deck and I like how it is positioned right now.
Hey Echelon, I'm still thinking about your decklist from the page 23 (the one with 4 Unmask side), and I have a doubt: If you have your Unmask in your first seven, do you cast it immediately? This can rip the hate off the hands of the opponent, but you'll end with a 5 cards hand, so you are triple-timewalking yourself. But on the other hand, if you wait until you have discarded your first dredger, the opponent will have time to play his hate and beat us, making useless the Unmask. Am I missing something?
EDIT to comment I've just read Chancellor of the Spires and I thought it was the best card possible for Manaless Dredge. Until I've realized that only the opponent puts the first seven in the graveyard
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
Nope, you didn't miss a thing. Unmask is probably best vs. Storm - first discard a dredger, then attack your opponents' hand to buy time until you can Therapy their hand to shreds.
The last couple of tournaments I've tried to board as little as possible, as speed is the decks biggest weapon. You lose when they have the hate, but give them the smallest window possible to find it. I don't know if it's the best call, but I do find it worth trying. Especially for the Spy list.
Ah OK, I get it: you are not boarding in Unmask always to fight hate, but just to address complicated matchups as Storm. For the other matches you just try to race them. I like it
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
Unmask just seemed to be better when paired with Chancellor of the Annex. Get past T1 courtesy of Chancellor, discard your first dredger and then cast Unmask.
The Amalgam list seems more suited for pure speed - Amalgam does help you get the T2 combo kill a little bit more consistently (meaning in those cases your opponent has only 1 turn to find Cage/RiP before having to cast it).
For what it's worth I don't think Force of Will really has an advantage over any other MD choice, I actually have a higher winrate vs combo with Unmask, so you can more or less play whatever you want in the MD. What I like about Amalgram is that you don't have to play Probe or Rider at all and can surprise them with FoW later, albeit you have to run something like Mindbreak Trap as well in the board.
RE: Force;
(In context) I tend to agree that Unmask is a great option in Manaless for combo. They usually only run Surgical Extraction IME.
But....
Brainstorm is everywhere. And getting Time Walked on T1, when it matters most against terminal hate, is poor.
This is the only reason I'm leaning toward Force, other than budget.
I would like to try this sideboard:
4 Force of Will
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
This is, the Echelon's side -4 Unmask +4 FoWs. My plan would be not sideboarding Game 2, and in case there would be a 3rd game, side in FoWs and Traps instead of -3 Balustrade -1 Flayer -4 Dread Return, and go for the pure aggro plan. The Traps would be there only to up the blue cards count for the FoWs, so we would have 4 FoWs, 4 Traps, 4 Probes, 4 Amalgams, 4 Narcos and 1 Progenitus, which I think would be enough. I'd like to test this experiment today, but I forgot to swap Unmasks to FoWs this morning
EDIT: Ignore the above post, this make no sense. I should play Blazing Shoal instead of Traps. So keep walking, nothing to see here
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
There is a huge difference in the consistency of being able to discard a black card to Unmask vs a blue card to Force of Will tho', and while Unmask isn't as much of a blow out vs combo as Force of Will it doesn't have to be as long as it buys you enough time to Cabal Therapy and/or win. Unmask isn't there to discard hate, it's there to delay the opponent's fundamental turn - so if you're Time Walking yourself with the card it's really your own fault.
I think you just have to force them to show you the Brainstorm, and even then you can still do some damage by discarding whatever is left behind. Force of Will works better as a "Hail Marry" SB strategy than a MB strategy IMO, because the priority targets for it aren't there game 1 and it's probably less consistent than Unmask vs combo fwiw.
Force of Will is definitely the best chance you have vs hate, no question, but I don't think it's just hands down better than the alternatives.
Well, yesterday I played the Echelon list (same exact 75) in a small tournament (18 people). I ended 3rd, making 3-1. I won 2-0 versus Canadian, 2-0 vs Miracles, 2-1 vs Omni-Tell and lost to Junk 1-2. Some thoughts:
* The deck is excellent when is unexpected. Right now the amount of graveyard hate is low (and people seems to start realizing it: yesterday they were 1 Reanimator, 1 Mana Dredge, 1 Manaless Dredge and 1 All Spells!), which obviously is great for us. But even more than that, the deck gets free wins because people has no clue of how to fight it. Of the four matches opponent could choose to play or to draw, in three of them they choose to play instead of draw. When to play Surgical, which target choose to Surgical, how to attack/block to exile Bridges/avoid Zombie tokens, when to aggresively mulligan for hate... any of this decisions, if is taken wrong, can give us wins in matches we should lose. Which is great
* In the match I've lost, game 2 my opponent found his only Grafdigger's Cage turn 1 and game 3 he has turn 1 Enlightened Tutor to turn 2 Cage. Sh*t happens.
* The match versus Omni-Tell was hilarious. I lost game one after dumping my hand to the graveyard via Phantasmagorian, then dredging my only Shambling Shell and not finding any other dredger. Then in Game 2 my opponent Show and Telled directly for Emrakul. I had Balustrade Spy in hand, so I deployed it and buried my entire library to graveyard. My opponent (and the people who were watching the match) thought that I was auto-losing, until they saw my Progenitus. Progenitus shuffled away, Narcomoebas came, Amalgams came, turn ended, in my upkeep Shadows and Ichorids came, I drew Progenitus and attacked with 17 creatures for something like 34 damage. Game three I boarded in Mindbreak Traps. When I started dredging and the first Trap hit the bin I said something like "oh well, now you know I play Traps". The match was long, as he coulnd't find his combo and he was trying to play around Traps (even if I didn't have any), and I was dredging awfully. He Extracted my Bridges and saw the two Balustrade Spies (and no Traps) I had in hand. Next turn he went for it with Show to Omni to Emrakul, hoping to draw something useful in his extra turn. I did again the Balustrade trick and emptied my library (except for Progenitus). In his extra turn he attacked me, leaving me boardless and at 5 life, but he couldn't find anything useful in his draw step, so I counter-attacked next turn with an army of dead things :) Winning twice through his Show and Tell: Living the dream!
* All in all I had a blast (and the spectators too, I think). The sad thing is that I won't play the deck again in a couple of months; now people in the store is again aware of it and will be more prepared. Maybe next time I'll try the blue sideboard version (though I'm not really sold on it).
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
I'm glad the deck worked out well for you! Progenitus does wonders for that particular list, it enables some incredibly fun plays. As long as your hand is full you can't deck yourself (just discard Progenitus to hand size every turn).
The point is, Cage & RiP are the most common hate I see outside of Extaction (which doesn't really bother us as much as the previous) and if we want to discard them, we have the best chance of doing it on T1 on the play.
Force isn't as reliable, I agree with you there, but then again Unmask VS Brainstorm usually means they get to land their hate IME. Force also has to content with our opponent playing with counter too, so there's that.
Fair enough. I like both options, and I can see the negatives of both. If where I usually play was running less dedicated hate, I'd probably run Unmask, but because my local usually takes graveyard decks seriously (might be my fault), the hate is usually there....Force of Will is definitely the best chance you have vs hate, no question, but I don't think it's just hands down better than the alternatives.
Hello! I've taken this deck to a few tournaments lately but I'm new to these forums. My list is very standard, Chancellors and Balastrude Spies. Probably the stock list from a few years ago. My sideboard is kinda thrown together, and I'm looking for some advice.
4 contagion
2 sickening shoal
4 faerie macabre
4 serum powder
1 blightsteel colossus
I've seen a lot of lists with Vengeful Pharaoh in the sideboard.. Doesn't that run counter to our game plan? It fries our own bridges, and it's a very defensive card when I feel like we want to be trying to just kill as fast as possible.
The Serum powders have been very underwhelming, but I don't really know what to replace them with. I don't currently have forces, and right now my magic budget is going towards a different deck.
Why do people run alternate DR targets? Don't you almost always want to be returning for the combo?
First off: Switch your Chancellors for a set of Amalgams. It's an incredible power boost.
It also makes Vengeful Pharaoh a lot better - they lessen your need for Bridges, hence it's less of a problem to blow them up.
Experience has taught me people handle Vengeful Pharaoh with a lot of care - the threat of blowing up their creatures can sometimes even halt the assault entirely (keeping your Bridges alive and buying you time in the process). I've also had people Surgical them before turning their creatures sideways (which is also fine by me). Pharaoh is a nice smoke curtain to distract your opponent from what's really going on. It can also sometimes catch a Containment Priest by surprise.
Browse through this board, take your pick from whatever stuff we throw in our sideboards and adjust it to your local meta as much as you can. Be aware of what MUs to actually sideboard for though - sometimes sticking with speed is your best bet (so don't configure your SB to deal with MUs where you don't want to SB).
On the topic of DR targets - each has their own up- and downsides. Balustrade Spy is straight on combo. Griselbrand is good when you expect to resolve no more than 1 DR in an entire game (since it can steal the game on its own strength). The blue cards are used when FoW (and possibly Disrupting Shoal) are involved, to up the blue count for those specific cards.
My point is they're not mutually exclusive strategies, you can MB Unmask and SB Force of Will.
Hey guys
I'll play my first Legacy tournament on sunday and want to ride the manaless beast to battle. The following list is what I've come to reading this thread.
MB:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Force of Will
SB:
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Unmask
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Leyline of the Void
Since I have not played the blue version yet (also no Prized Amalgam) I'd like to have some opinions on my sideboarding thoughts.
I consider the following as flex spots:
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Nether Shadow
- 1 Shambling Shell
- 1 Phantasmagorian
My plan is to board out Force of Will, where I'd rather have Sickening Shoal (BGx --> Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze). Is that correct or would you rather have Force of Will AND Sickening Shoal?
Further if I want to keep Force of Will and additionally bring in Disrupting Shoals (three of them) I'd cut 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Shambling Shell and 1 Phantasmagorian. I'm not sure if boarding out Phantasmagorian is correct but I'm also not sure if boarding out another Nether Shadow is better. I can't see any other flex spots.
If I need space for 4 specific sideboard cards though (Leyline of the Void, Unmask + Mindbreak Trap), I'd also cut the second Nether Shadow.
If I only board in 2 Unmask, I'll board out 1 Shambling Shell and 1 Nether Shadow.
That's my plan so far. I am not experienced with the list and I'm happy to hear some feedback to my list and if I can try sideboarding this way.
Greetings
You´ve got much more slots than that that you can SB out. I would say that besides the 12 big dredgers, 4 narcos and 3 ichos everything can and should be considered as SB outable.
So considering your list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
always keep.
3 Shambling Shell
Keep all 3 if DRS is there. Otherwise strongly consider shaving from 2 to 3 if you need space. It is a really bad dredger.
4 Narcomoeba
always keep
3 Nether Shadow
SBout against combo (you want your 9 counters + 2 unmask and high U count, maybe the LLotV), to be considered against others.
4 Ichorid
Shave 1 in combo MUs
4 Prized Amalgam
Shave some when bridges are not at risk and you SBout FoW.
4 Street Wraith
Always keep.
4 Gitaxian Probe
can be Sbed out.
4 Phantasmagorian
keep all 4 against DRS. Otherwise remove 1 to 3 depending on the MU.
4 Bridge from Below
Some can be shaved vs combo, merfolk (cursecatcher + image makes it quite bad here), mirror (LED or manaless alike),..
4 Cabal Therapy
I almost never SB them out, but there must be some MUs were they are not stellar (mirror, ?)
3 Dread Return
Some can easily be SB out if space is needed. But I would play 4 in the first place.
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Easily SBed out if Troll is a good enough target and/or some DR are gone.
4 Force of Will
If there is noting that you truly fear that would be played in numbers.
Otherwise, your SB:
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Unmask
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Leyline of the Void
First, it is really oriented vs Storm. You may want to address other MUs. The 2 traps, in particular have no use outside of this particular MU.
I usually prefer Contagion over shoal: it kills DRS in the same way or better if pitch is CT, can cripple opposing creatures without killing them to keep bridges. Contagion is better vs delvers, young pyro, goyf, elves, infect (counters stays, so playing it during your turn prevents invigorate saving, can take a noble down with it,...), can be played on your own blocked ichorid/token to avoid losing bridges,... I would at least consider a contagion /S.Shoal split.
On the grave hate, I prefer faeries/SE/noxious revival over LL, but that depends witch MUs you want to address with gravehate: they let you keep a full grip in MUs that are usually fast, SE is really good with CT, Faeries interact nicely with the deck, noxious is an ok card as it is a gravehate that doubles as getting things from your GY (FoW-unmask mostly) and protection from opposing SE.
I really do like 1-2 pharaoh, extremely good vs some MUs.
On the MD, CotA is a very good card, especially when you pair it with cards such as FoW or unmask, and is an OK DR target.
Hope it helped, and good luck for your first tournament! The deck is a lot of fun to play :)
I really don't like Leyline of the Void in Manaless Dredge sideboards. You're sacrificing a turn to work the opponent's graveyard, but potentially needing to mulligan to do so. You're better off playing (or mulling to) Leyline of Sanctity, which grants you not only protection from hate cards like Bojuka Bog and the sort, but also has a wider application versus decks like Burn, ANT/TES, Belcher, discard, etc. Faerie Macabre has much more rich synergy with the deck and gives you greater blowout value. It's also a much better top-deck and "draw-into" card with Street Wraith and Probe.
Point being: graveyard decks don't give Manaless as much trouble as player-targeted strategies do.
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