Thanks guys, that already helped me a lot!
@dte:
-In which MU do you really want Pharaohs?
-Where would you board out FoW?
-My thinking with Sickening Shoal instead of Contagion was that I can also kill Ooze after 1+ activation. Or is that irrelevant?
-I have also really liked CotA but I needed to make room for Amalgams and FoW
@Mr. Keller: I never realized that Leyline of Sanctity shuts off Bogs/Crypts/... and also does wonders vs. Storm/Burn/...
What do you guys think of the following sideboard:
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Sickening Shoal / Contagion
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Faerie Macabre
Or should I rather go for 3 Leyline, 3 Faeries and 2 Unmask? I'm not really sure if I really need Unmask since I have FoW/Shoal. In which matchups do you board it in where Therapies aren't enough?
It's really dependent on how the primary sixty looks. I've always been an advocate of running four Faerie Macabres in Manaless, only because of its many synergies, top-deck value and free activation. It's one of the best cards in the deck, honestly.Originally Posted by Snowfire
I've bounced between two and three Shoals, which is really a meta choice. If you suspect more Rest in Peace and Infernal Tutors, go with three.
I also actually play three Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard. I always eschew the fourth because it's a dead dredge, terrible top-deck, and gives you just enough value at three to be effective in a starting hand without having multiples and potentially double-Walking your opponent.
As for Contagion and Sickening Shoal, that's up for debate. Shoal gives you added clutch value against growing Oozes and Elesh Norn, but with four Faeries, surprise Pharaoh(s) and Prized Amalgams that survive Elesh Norn and enable Dread Return possibilities - Elesh Norn isn't much of a concern (to me anymore, at least). Remember, even creatures that die to Elesh Norn still enter the battlefield from the graveyard and trigger them. This is why I run Contagion, because it gives you value to hit your creatures and theirs, as well. Contagion is generally just an all-around better card in my opinion, and while it's true it can't stop creatures with toughness of three or more, it's rare you'll be in a situation where you're actually boarding in Contagion and then needing it in that scenario anyhow. Most scenarios it's just good against Deathrite Shaman and other weenie decks in the early goings.
Thanks man!
I think I'll go for:
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Contagion
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
In which specific matchups do you bring in the Pharaoh? I can think of Reanimator and maybe Show n Tell. Also Merfolk, Goblins etc.?
Yes, irrelevant. Ooze usually enters the battlefield with G up at best. Then you can answer the ooze activation with contagion. It is really rare that the opponent play ooze with much more manas available.
If your opponent succeeded to go as far as having 4-5 manas and play ooze plus remove 2-3 cards in your gy, chances are that even with shoal you will not win anyway.
On a global comment on your SB: I strongly think that having 4-of cards is not that good. You lose in flexibility. instead of a 4-of anything, you can play different things. For gy-hate for instance, you can play 1 faeries, 1 noxious, 1 surgical, 1 LLotV. Nothing wrong with 1-ofs LL (W or B) too, you're not going to mull into it anyway. Surgical and noxious are playable against non-gy decks too.
When playing any dredge deck, you have to realize that G2 your opponent will have a close look at what you SBed. If your storm opponent starts SBing in CoV to deal with LLoS and you play only one, it is good for you. Not that good if you play four. if he sees a lot of faeries in G2, chances are a CT will hit them before he plays PiF, and so on...
If it is your first journey, try to take a lot of different cards, it is the best way to realize how good or bad each of them is.
Good luck!
Pharaoh should be brought into match-ups where dangerous or troublesome creatures ( i.e. Containment Priest, Reanimator creatures, Thalia, etc.) can keep you at bay. It's more of a utility card, honestly. I've found myself in multiple instances just exiling it to Ichorid. Other times when you need him and you're able to surprise the opponent with Phantasmagorian, it's really good.
Seconded!
Although Delver pilots tend to Surgical it before Surgicalling anything else. It's hilarious.
I've come to a conclusion regarding sideboarding that I think is contrary to popular belief, and I'm wondering if anyone's reached the same conclusion. My understanding is that most people board out the Balustrade Spy/Dread Return package, and shave things like Shambling Shell/Gitaxian Probe/Street Wraith/Bridge from Below/Cabal Therapy, when boarding in anti-hate.
I tried that, and found that my ability to play fair was compromised by the watering down of the deck, and losses were common even if I beat the hate. I've preferred keeping the combo package in to have that option open if I'm not powering out tons of creatures. For instance, against some generic grindy deck without counterspells or Deathrite Shaman boarding in Grafdigger's Cage, I might do something like +4 Force of Will, +4 Serum Powder, +3 Disrupting Shoal, -4 Street Wraith, -4 Cabal Therapy, -2 Shambling Shell, -1 Bridge from Below.
An exacerbating factor might be my large sideboarding of frequently 11 cards compared to people who just switch 4 FOWs and 4 Shoals for 4 D. Returns and 4 Spies, but even when I tried that, I felt watered down and vulnerable to getting outgrinded even if hate was a nonfactor. Whatchu think?
I don't play the spies, still do not think they are good.
I don't know what you can possibly refer to when you speak about something with neither DRS nor countermagic.
For me that is either prison, with Eldrazi, D&T; in which the DR package is not that great (C Priest, Thalia, Thorn, RiP), or combo, when you of course want it (but then cutting the Cabal therapies makes no sense).
Also, I cannot see why you would cut on Street Wraith against either of them.
Also, about the so-called "spy-DR package". Considering it as a package can give you the wrong idea: even without a target, DR is an excellent way to make a lot of tokens and/or putting a 10/10 into play. I frequently kept 3-4 DR and no targets post board.
Street Wraith is one of your most powerful cards vs. a part of the GY hate you face. Don't ever board those out!
I also tend to keep the combo package in - it's our fastest way to achieve a kill. Don't board that out either.
I tend to skip on Gitaxian Probe first, then a Phantasmagorian, then 1 Spy and some more 1-offs.
The vast majority of Manaless Dredge players disagree with you. Regardless, if you don't play Spy, it's a little difficult to have a discussion with you about the intricacies of boarding Spy in or keeping Spy in.
It's a generic example, and it does exist; Burn and Goblins are two examples. I can explain my boarding thoughts on other examples, but the general idea is that I like keeping all the Spies in.
I'd never advocate cutting Therapy against combo.
You have to cut something, and if you're not protecting against something like DRS, Wraith is mostly speed. Something has to go. If I'm bringing in 8-11 cards, and am convinced that this waters down the deck's swarm ability and the combo should stay in, what else would you cut?
This is getting back to my original and main premise. I've found that bringing in all those FoWs, Shoals, etc. (which I've loved) has damaged my ability to grind, and I've won more when I've retained Spies compared to when I've abandoned the combo plan. Of course D. Return can function without Spy but that's still part of the swarm plan, which gets really tough post board, especially if you had to shave a Bridge.
The example I cited only has Cage. How does Wraith combat that? Obviously the cards taken out will change depending on the match up. I certainly wouldn't board Wraith out against a deck with DRS, Ooze, etc.
On this main point we agree. I have the impression that others board it out.
We're talking about what we board out when we board in Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal, and you really can't board Probe out there.
FoWs in a Spy-list is incredibly greedy.
Anyways, looking at your specific situation: If you run a Spy-list with Prized Amalgams (and you should never run Spy without them, in my opinion) you could actually skip on Bridge From Below entirely. You churn out enough bodies to combo out (and with a Progenitus in your 60 you're free to spread your combo over 2 turns) regardless of Bridge (or just swing for 30+ the following turn).
After that you can start cutting non-blue singletons I suppose. Shouldn't hurt the deck too much.
I find FoW in Spy lists is more effective than FoW in Whirlpool Rider (or whatever) lists, because you can support post board FoWs with just Narcomoeba, Prized Amalgam and Gitaxian Probe without telegraphing it by playing it main deck or having a blue reanimation target.
Regarding Spy lists, I think they're the more budget friendly but no less tournament competitive lists, I keep a Spy list with MD Unmasks sleaved for paper Magic and don't have a much worse winrate vs my online FoW list (River Kelpie). As for SBing, I probably cut the DR targets and Nether Shadow the most for anti-hate, in the Spy lists I bring in Chancellor of the Annex for the Spy/Flayer and just grind down the opponent a lot. Otherwise you just cut a Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell, Dread Return and Bridge from Below if you want to sneak in a card.
Playing less than 4 Disrupting Shoals really irks me, if you're cutting the 4th Shambling Shell for the 4th Whirpool Rider then you should be going all in on Disrupting Shoal in order to have 11 blue cards to pitch to a Disrupting Shoal vs Rest in Peace - it's not a card you half ass.
Guys, today was just perfect! It was my first Legacy tournament ever (51 contestants) and I took home a 5-1 finishing 3rd place. Played the following list:
MB:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
3 Dread Return
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Force of Will
SB:
3 Disrupting Shoal
1 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal --> I thought I have 4 Contagion in paper, turned out I didn't... Had to got with Shoals instead. :D
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Faerie Macabre
____
Round 1: Alex - Merfolk
Game 1 I had a pretty slow start (also thanks to Cursecatcher removing my single Bridge). He almost had me dead and I had 1 zombie token and 2 Nether Shadow which I all needed for blockers to survive. He did Echoing Truth on Nether Shadow. I luckily had Force of Will, could block his dudes and somehow managed to kill him with some Flayer action (I was at 1 life at that point).
Boarding: -1 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> +3 Disrupting Shoal
Game 2 he had 2 True-Name Nemesis on a Lord effect bashing me down to 5 (I would have been dead next turn). I think I had some 1/1 at that point. Luckily I got to counter his Tormod's Crypt with Force of Will and managed to combo out with Whirlpool Rider into Flayer on my turn.
2-0 WIN
____
Round 2: Stefan - UR Delver
Game 1 I had some beatdown action going on and he scooped as I reanimated Flayer on T3 with two Amalgams EOT.
Boarding: -1 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> +3 Disrupting Shoal
Game 2 he got me down to 6 life with 2 Swiftspears, but I was racing with Ichorid and some zombies. He had a Cage on his starting hand, but saw my Force of Will with his Gitaxian Probe. Needless to say I countered that one. He held his Swiftspears back as blockers. Killed him though.
2-0 WIN
____
Round 3: Alex - BUG Delver
Game 1 he started with T1 Delver and T2 DRS (which I have countered with FoW) and a few cantrips. I could damage him a little until T3, when I reanimated Flayer into 2 Amalgams EOT, which brought him to exactly 0 life.
Boarding: -1 Shambling Shell, -3 Nether Shadow --> 1 Contagion, 3 Sickening Shoal (for Deathrite Shaman)
Game 2 he started with a T1 Delver and T2 DRS again, but I didn't have an out. I had a Troll, a Shell and a Phantasmagorian in my graveyard at that point. He DRS'd my Troll and went Surgical on Shambling Shell. EOT I discarded some stuff into my Phantasmagorian and had 2 Amalgam, 1 Ichorid and a bunch of zombie tokens, which was enough to kill him.
2-0 WIN
____
Round 4: Mathias - Grixis Delver
Game 1 I was thinking 'holy shit another Delver'. That was a beautiful game. Thanks to a Street Wraith dredging a Troll I had 2 Narcomoebas, 1 Amalgam and 1 Ichorid in play on turn 2 ready to attack. He couldn't race that.
Boarding: -1 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> +3 Disrupting Shoal
Game 2 he had a T2 Pyromancer and I had a slow start. The tokens and burn killed me. I countered an Extraction with Street Wraith though, which was something I guess.
Game 3 I got very unlucky. Additionally to his T1 Delver, T3 Angler and my slow start he extracted my only chance to win (Ichorid). Couldn't find any more dredgers or creatures.
1-2 LOSS
____
Round 5: Felix - 4c Loam
Game 1 was unspectacular. I saw some irrelevant stuff with Therapy and comboed out T3 or T4.
Boarding: -2 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> 4 Leyline of Sanctity (I was afraid of Bojuka Bog)
Game 2 he Marit Lage'd me hard on T3 with Mox Diamond support, couldn't do anything about it. The combo must have come out of his sideboard.
Game 3 he mulliganed for Leyline of the Void but couldn't find any (he told me he played 3 and no Bojuka Bog after the game). He kept a bad 5 card hand. I just beat him down with a bunch of creatures.
2-1 WIN
____
Round 6: Tobias - Mono R Staxx
Game 1 he shocked me with Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox into Hanweir Garnison on Turn 1 followed by a Golbin Rabblemaster. Yeah I just couldn't race that and didn't find the combo. I was dead on T4 I think. Dude was playing 4 Blood Moon, 4 Magus of the Moon, 4 Chalice, 4 Tombs, 4 Spirit Guides and 4 Chrome Mox. No CMC2 spells I think. Is that even a deck in Legacy?
Boarding: -2 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> 3 Sickening Shoal, 1 Contagion (I needed an out for this brutal T1 play next to Force of Will).
Game 2 he mulled to 5 and didn't have anything relevant other that a Faerie Macabre which gave him a turn. I beat him down with Ichorids and stuff the following turns supported by Shoal killing his creature. Yeah Jitte is bad with no creature.
Game 3 he did the same thing as in game 1, but I had Force of Will. He mulled to 6 and was down to 2 (irrelevant) cards, which was totally worth the loss of 2 turns because of FoW. He didn't do anything relevant the rest of the game and I comboed out with Whirlpool Rider easily.
2-1 WIN
____
I finished on 3rd place under 51 contestants with an end result of 5-1 and took home a Savannah and SFM. I was so happy about this as it was my first legacy tournament and the 5th tournament (2 Modern and 2 Prereleases so far) in total. Force of Will really saved the day. It won 3 or 4 matches, especially the two in round 1. I was a little lucky though I guess. It's funny how I haven't lost vs Grixis Delver because of hate but because of very slow starts. I have not made any severe misplays. There were smaller ones, but that didn't screw up a whole game. I'll get some more practice with the blue version and see where it will take me.
Do you guys have any suggestions on how I should have sideboarded? Was it correct? There was a guy who said I should play Nature's Claim and Elvish Spirit Guide or Bayou in my sideboard to have an out vs Leyline. But considering that I need 8 sb slots for it I find that kinda bad... What do you think?
Congrats, Snowfire. That's a really great result for someone just starting out.
Some 4c Loam players run the Depths-Stage combo and some don't. Those that do run 1 copy of each, so it's unusual for them to combo out so fast, if at all. It's possible that your opponent should have just mulled to 1 in search of the Leyline, especially because he didn't have a line like Knight of the Reliquary into Bojuka Bog. This is a big decision point for anyone who runs Leyline and why I would never run less than 4 if I was going to run it.
You played against Dragon Stompy in Round 6. The deck is an all-in Blood Moon deck and used to ramp into Rakdos Pit Dragon, its namesake, but superior red creatures have been printed since then. If you're curious, you can find out more by reading the thread. It's here in the Established section. Sometimes it is referred to as Moon Stompy, Goblin Stompy or Goblin Prison, depending on which creatures it's running.
Playing Nature's Claim and green-producing sources is a big sideboard commitment, and the odds are not on your side to mulligan to both or draw both in the first several turns of the game. You have to decide whether you're going to scoop to a Leyline or whether you want to try to fight that battle with your sideboard. In my experience, I just wouldn't play this deck if I expected to run into more than a few Leylines in a tournament. It's probably the worst-nightmare hate card to see, but it isn't very common. You're much more likely to see Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest, Faerie Macabre, and Tormod's Crypt over the course of a tournament.
@Snowfire: Congrats!
I'm not a fan of the green SB plan. It pretty much means that you must have a green source AND a Nature's Claim in your opening 7 AND your opponent can't have a counter or a Wasteland (not everyone is smart enough to board those out vs. us) in order for it to work. That's a pretty big gamble if you ask me. Too big for my taste.
Well, about the only difference between spy and w.rider is if you prefer to have a pitch for ichorid or a pitch for shoal-Fow. I do not see where it makes a huge difference when it comes down to boarding.
Well, when you say decks with neither DRS or countermagic, there are four of them in the DTB sections (2 prisons, 2 combos). I genuinely thought you were talking about them, not burn or gob.
If you talk about DRS decks, but do not want to talk about shardless, or dever variants, or elves, but more about Jund/junk/maverick, please precise it.
Why do you want to keep the 4 spy and the 4 DR, if not for speed? If you want to race vs combo (no hate, no counters) you can cut the nether shadows, all shambling shell, bridge from below, and shave a bit in the phantasmagorian and amalgam slots.
Apologize in advance if this has been answered already but I'm curious, the blue package looks really sweet and makes me want to pick up the deck but what's the plan for bojuka bog, just Leyline of sanctity?
It depends on the context of the use of Bog. It's used primarily in conjunction with Crop Rotation, so you can play Force with Leyline and that should suffice. However, I play Shoal in most of those match-ups because typically Bog sees play in Lands and sometimes 12-Post variants, so having Shoal to counter other cards conveniently like Life from the Loam (to stop recursion with Exploration and Wasteland - buying you a turn to pluck a Faerie or something), Show and Tell (pitching Amalgam), etc. helps.
I think the key for folks who want to play the blue package is to understand how many Shoals to board in certain match-ups. I will sometimes run one Shoal paired with max Forces and max Leylines against Lands and other Crop Rotation decks, but that's until we get another card for one blue mana that makes it better than playing just Probe with it to counter one mana spells. Until that day comes, Chancellor of the Annex is your best weapon to buy a turn so you can discard as normal.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 08-17-2016 at 12:42 PM.
Manaless Dredge got 2nd at today's SCG Classic in Somerset.
Awesome! Hopefully we'll get a report!
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