[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[slave]

Wait, thats not true. A countered pact will not create the delayed triggered ability. Or am I misinformed?

Oops... yeah you're right there. Sorry my bad.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I think Lands is particularly easy as well. The cards we care about are Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation and Gamble as those accelerate their access Bojuka Bog. It's not going to be game over if you get hit by one either, but obviously if they can recur it, you're donezo.

To combat that one scenario they are wrecking us, I'm bringing in a total of 11 cards - 4 Force, 4 Shoal, 3 Surgical. To make space for all this, I take out combo pieces and Therapy. By doing this, you also blank their Trinispheres that they probably brought in since you will already have played your Probes. Then you get to play a little random numbers sub-game with your deck hopefully delivering early Ichorids as those are your MVP.

I suppose if they are truly adept with their deck, they could wait to expose Loam until they are behind a Trinisphere (Macabre still doesn't care though), but that also leaves them vulnerable to our explosiveness. It just feels like they are always getting squeezed from different angles by our deck and that gives us the upper hand most of the time.

[Daize]

Interesting idea.. though what usually happens with me is this: Trinisphere (neutralizing counters), and then everything else. Faerie Macabre really shines here though.

[zzap]

Greetings again!

I have changed to fearless build, for I play tested the blue package with mediocre results. I feel that the addition of counters makes the deck too inefficient in what it's supposed to do: dredge. We know this, but to go along the lines of combo, we need to be fast. Inefficient dredges defeats the concept of speed. I have also changed to a combo build in the sense that I increased Dread Returns and Griselbrands. I now consistently drop Grisel on turn two much more than I did before. Thanks for the ease in dealing with my tenacious aggro pitch; still aggro, but combo to seal wins faster.

Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing in my sideboard; I run 4 with great results. He does very well against Show and Tell matchups. Don't forget that you can drop him with their Show and Tell. If they drop Omni then Emrakul, you should be fine. Annihilator will hit Pharaoh and send him to the grave. Emrakul hits, not for lethal, then Pharaoh kills Emrakul. Either they have to chain Emrakuls, which reduces their combo effectiveness, or move to their Ant clash combo. I have chewed up a bunch of Edrazi in this fashion. I even killed an Iona while playing against Reanimator. I don't normally bring him in other aggro matchups, as I feel that the deck is speedy enough to deal with them. He is also anti Bridges, which makes for only sb material. Wondering if anyone else has tested this fella...

Happy Magicing!

[Daize]

Read the thread and you'll find answers.

[slave]

Greetings again!

I have changed to fearless build, for I play tested the blue package with mediocre results. I feel that the addition of counters makes the deck too inefficient in what it's supposed to do: dredge. We know this, but to go along the lines of combo, we need to be fast. Inefficient dredges defeats the concept of speed. I have also changed to a combo build in the sense that I increased Dread Returns and Griselbrands. I now consistently drop Grisel on turn two much more than I did before. Thanks for the ease in dealing with my tenacious aggro pitch; still aggro, but combo to seal wins faster.

Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing in my sideboard; I run 4 with great results. ....... Wondering if anyone else has tested this fella...

RE: Vengeful Pharoah, yeah he can be pretty good on occasion. I've tested him a fair bit, read though the last 4 or 5 pages or so to see some thoughts from a few of us.

RE: Blue VS Fearless.
Blue still has the same number of dredgers, Dread Returns and acceleration in Wraith/Probe from the lists I've seen.
Where blue misses out is the last few slots for Chancellor and Baubles.
Thing is, Manaless is dead to any fast deck that can win on T1 or T2, unless you have active counter.

You're consistently dropping G-man on turn2? I know it's all possible, but *consistently* is a big claim.
Could you post a list?

[Rivfader]

Am I the only one who seems to think Lands is easy?

I think Lands is particularly easy as well.

Are you guys talking about RUG or RG-Lands?

You probably have way more experience with Manaless than me, but I've been playing RG-Lands quite intensively for over a year now, and I have never lost the matchup versus dredge. That's just personal experience, but I'm pretty sure the Lands-matchup is unfavorable for Dredge. It is not just Bojuka Bog, that's just a setback. It's Glacial Chasm that's the problem, since dredge cannot beat a preboard Chasm + loam. And there's 8 1manatutors in Crop Rotation and Gamble to find them in time. There aren't many decks (perhaps none) with so many preboard solutions to Dredge as Lands. Besides that, Lands has a fast clock of its own.

Ofcourse there are postboard options, but since there's no mulliganing, you do need a fair share of luck to have them in the opening hand. Lands on the other hand will sideboard as well, up to 6 (trini)spheres, and can mulligan for these or the tutors / silverbullets.

[slave]

Are you guys talking about RUG or RG-Lands?
...
I've been playing RG-Lands quite intensively for over a year now, and I have never lost the matchup versus dredge.

I can't speak for the other boys, but I'm talking about that Lands deck with the Loam-engine, Bojuka Bog, Chasm, Dark Depths etc.
I've not had a large amount of time playing against this deck, but I've not done well against it at all.

[GoldenCid]

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.

I
SB: 3 Serum Powder
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Unmask[/cards]

Sideboard decisions: I have had shoal miss too many times. When my opponent mulligans down to 5 and then is pleased. I want the FoW obviously, but if I can't find it with a Serum then I'll gladly Unmask, take that grave hate and wait 2 turns to start dredging. Its my preferred backup method of not auto-losing to RiP and the like.

Glad to see shoals out from sides! :)
I say this because in playtesting using this side:

4 FoW
4 Shoal
4 M. trap

i found shoal, even fow, very conditional cards. With fow, you need a blue card which become 16 if you side in 4 fow and 4 shoal with 4 probes and 4 moebas but with shoal you precisely need moeba to deal with rip and probe to deal with cage. This bothered me.

I'd prefer a side more like:

4 Trap
4 FoW
4 Unmask (you have extra black cards all time)
3 Macabre.

[mistercakes]

what's your guys maindeck lists look like nowadays? i've been using the same one on modo for a while, but have only had time to play in casual 1v1's. current list is still using 4 md FoW, 3 whirlpool rider and the rest of the usual suspects

[Mitalca]

Glad to see shoals out from sides! :)
I say this because in playtesting using this side:

4 FoW
4 Shoal
4 M. trap

i found shoal, even fow, very conditional cards. With fow, you need a blue card which become 16 if you side in 4 fow and 4 shoal with 4 probes and 4 moebas but with shoal you precisely need moeba to deal with rip and probe to deal with cage. This bothered me.

I'd prefer a side more like:

4 Trap
4 FoW
4 Unmask (you have extra black cards all time)
3 Macabre.

That's why when you go with blue, you change the reanimation target to whirlpool rider

[zzap]

what's your guys maindeck lists look like nowadays? i've been using the same one on modo for a while, but have only had time to play in casual 1v1's. current list is still using 4 md FoW, 3 whirlpool rider and the rest of the usual suspects

4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Griselbrand
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Dakmor Depths
4 Wasteland

I am very happy with my list; the only weak spot in the deck are the probes, so I am waiting for a replacement to be printed.

[mistercakes]

some questions about your brew:

do you not miss nether shadow? doesn't griselbrand seem kind of bad? you can't win without attacking and he's greatly affected by karakas. i don't quite understand the 4 wasteland, it seems like it's taking up a lot of slots. and playing this many lands, and still not having any way to deal with the hate cards seems a bit strange.

i'm not saying your decisions are bad, but i think they warrant some kind of explanation.

[zzap]

some questions about your brew:

do you not miss nether shadow? doesn't griselbrand seem kind of bad? you can't win without attacking and he's greatly affected by karakas. i don't quite understand the 4 wasteland, it seems like it's taking up a lot of slots. and playing this many lands, and still not having any way to deal with the hate cards seems a bit strange.

i'm not saying your decisions are bad, but i think they warrant some kind of explanation.

Nether Shadow: I've posted before writing that, in my opinion, Bloodghast is better. BG can hit the board on T2 without help from Phant or Wraith unlike Nether. Nether has the same hiccup as Ichorid in that they can't activate the turn they are dredged. Also, 2/1 is much bigger than a 1/1 where a grindy match needs to be played.

Griselbrand: He is soft wincon by himself. Then he dredges my deck. He plays very well against Show and Tell, where Spy can't be dropped because you lose the game on your turn. Karakas hardly hurts; I respond with dredging and/or Wasteland.

Wasteland: This is my personal choice; usually lists with BG run Arbors, so I replaced them with WL. I believe the choice is sound. WL can win games by themselves, as I have had the chance in opening a hand with double WL which is absolutely brutal for greedy decks. The land helps me fight DRS at times by hitting their critical colors. So far so good, for I have been blessed with solid results and compliments from opponents many times on CT for their inclusions.

Fearless: My deck is Fearless, so hate will be hate. I have run FOWs packages before, and I haven't seen much improvement. I have countered hate before, but I have also had delinquent dredges because of FOWs and Shoals where I would have won if I hit another Narc instead.

Probes and WL dredged into the yard are making the deck less efficient; this is true. That's 8 cards that don't dredge well, but I believe that number is fine so long as it stays under 10. In my opinion, Probes are weaker than WL. I am considering replacing them with a playset of Pharaohs, but testing will prevail.

Keep Dredging!^^

[GoldenCid]

That's why when you go with blue, you change the reanimation target to whirlpool rider

Yes, but i still think that it is very specific.
You have to go shoal + Whirlpool to deal just with RIP. I feel it weak but that is how it works.

[DarkJester]

You have to go shoal + Whirlpool to deal just with RIP.

Or Shoal + Shoal, or Shoal + Narco. It happens ;)

[Echelon]

some questions about your brew:

do you not miss nether shadow? doesn't griselbrand seem kind of bad? you can't win without attacking and he's greatly affected by karakas. i don't quite understand the 4 wasteland, it seems like it's taking up a lot of slots. and playing this many lands, and still not having any way to deal with the hate cards seems a bit strange.

i'm not saying your decisions are bad, but i think they warrant some kind of explanation.

Griselbrand is a fine DR target as long as you have 8+ life (or 11+ when facing anyRed.dec). Who cares about Karakas? You just activate his ability, dredge your deck and combo out that same turn. Heck, if necessary you just DR a 2nd one for that turn (as long as your life total is high enough).

Nowadays I run a hybrid build with Nether Shadow, Ichorid AND Bloodghast as recurring critters and Whirlpool Drake as DR target. I run Drake over Rider b/c I don't use the counter package, so Drake lets me ignore a Stifle/lets me do my trick twice. I've been able to combo out with only 2 cards in hand, Drake is nuts (and it's easier to keep track of all that's going on then it is with River Kelpie). The only thing I'm having trouble with is finding enough creatures to feed to Ichorid(s). But that's mainly b/c I don't like to feed Ichorid Nether Shadows or Bloodghasts.

[kuroko16]

hi guys, my friend decide to play legacy (budget for now) and manaless it's sound a good idea ( he has already burn)

i don't know nothing about manaless. i found this list. it's old or it's ok?


4 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Spells [16]
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe



Force of Will are necessary? some idea for side?

thanks.

[jimmythegreek]

hi guys, my friend decide to play legacy (budget for now) and manaless it's sound a good idea ( he has already burn)

i don't know nothing about manaless. i found this list. it's old or it's ok?


4 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Spells [16]
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe



Force of Will are necessary? some idea for side?

thanks.

List looks good. This is my preferred version of manaless with spy, dread returning a spy is usually good game. I personally would add a chancellor and subtract a shambling shell if drs is something you think you'll see regularly. A single serra avatar in your deck allows you to show and tell spy and win on your next turn, you could side one of these. Also, chancellor can be a great dread return target against certain decks. Force of will is definetly not necessary. Sometimes the card will save your ass, other times its just another dead card in your graveyard and any other card would have been better. Best bet ive found is learn the format and use cabal therapy to its full potential.

[Echelon]

hi guys, my friend decide to play legacy (budget for now) and manaless it's sound a good idea ( he has already burn)

i don't know nothing about manaless. i found this list. it's old or it's ok?


4 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Spells [16]
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe



Force of Will are necessary? some idea for side?

thanks.

As Jimmy said:
-1 Balustrade Spy
-1 Shambling Shell

+1 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Progenitus/Serra Avatar/Darksteel Colossus/Worldspine Wurm

But that's it.