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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1421

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    On another note, Raffaele Farina put up 2 good results with Manaless at the beginning of this year. Nothing got mentioned in this thread at the time. He was running Vine Dryads and Once Upon a Time:

    This list got 1st out of 37. The previous tournament list was the same, except there were 4 Hogaak and 0 Shambling Shell. That result was 2nd out of 49.

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Bridge from Below

    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Dread Return

    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    1 Shambling Shell

    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid

    4 Vine Dryad
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Phantasmagorian

    Sideboard:
    4 Force of Vigor
    3 Sickening Shoal
    1 Ashen Rider
    3 Faerie Macabre
    4 Mindbreak Trap

  2. #1422

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Vine Dryad seems like a cute idea, probably worse than Basking Rootwalla but there might be some funny list where you play both for turbo Hogaak.

  3. #1423

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Vine Dryad seems like a cute idea, probably worse than Basking Rootwalla but there might be some funny list where you play both for turbo Hogaak.
    I think that Rootwalla mostly depends on Phantasmagorian, while Vine Dryad doesn't, so there is some value in that. I do think that the green count is important for Force of Vigor, and I am trying to figure out what the best plan is for the Silversmote/Ashen Ghoul version in that regard.

  4. #1424
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    turbo Hogaak.
    "TurbOgaak"?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  5. #1425
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi everyone,
    I'm playing manaless dredge since a month now and I'd be pleased to have some tips on sideboard and how to beat the hate on game 2 and 3, and of course comments on my list.
    Speaking of the devil, here is what I'm playing :

    Creatures (44)
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    1 Thassa's Oracle
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Ichorid
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian

    Sorcery (8)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return

    Instant (4)
    4 Once Upon a Time

    Enchantment (4)
    4 Bridge from Below
    60 Cards


    Sideboard (15)
    4 Surgical Extraction
    3 Sickening Shoal
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Force of Will


    I'm playing a more combo-oriented version. I love flayer of the hatebound but it offers our opponents another way to disrupt our deck with white leyline. Thassa oracle doesn't.

    I've seen that most of the lists here play Hogaak. I love and I've played 2 exemplar in my first version, but I never played them, they were only pitched on ichorid on game 1, and on FoV or Shoal on game 2/3.

    Ive replaced them by 2 additional shambling shell, as my deck seemed to have a lack of dredgers :

    Last week I played against snowOko and on my 3 opening hands I didn't have any dredgers. I lost 1-2 and it was a bit frustrating. Since then with -2 hogaak +2 shambling shell, such misadventure never happens (crossing fingers )

    I have a lot of questions regarding my list and yours :

    1) Why serum powder on sideboard ?
    2) Vine dryad is a creature we can play for free without graveyard. Ok, nice. But do you really count on it to deal 20 damages ?!? Or is it just another food for dread return ?
    3) How do you side and play against black leyline/cage/RIP/containment priest turn 1 ?
    4) How do you play against crop rotation -> bojuka bog ?
    5) How do you play against Thalia or any permanent that makes our spells cost additional mana(s) ?
    6) Is there any situation where you can take a mulligan ? If so, why ?

    I know it's a lot, I thank everyone who will answer ^^

  6. #1426
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Legolto View Post
    Hi everyone,
    I'm playing manaless dredge since a month now and I'd be pleased to have some tips on sideboard and how to beat the hate on game 2 and 3, and of course comments on my list.
    I have a lot of questions regarding my list and yours :

    1) Why serum powder on sideboard ?
    2) Vine dryad is a creature we can play for free without graveyard. Ok, nice. But do you really count on it to deal 20 damages ?!? Or is it just another food for dread return ?
    3) How do you side and play against black leyline/cage/RIP/containment priest turn 1 ?
    4) How do you play against crop rotation -> bojuka bog ?
    5) How do you play against Thalia or any permanent that makes our spells cost additional mana(s) ?
    6) Is there any situation where you can take a mulligan ? If so, why ?

    I know it's a lot, I thank everyone who will answer ^^
    I noticed a quick thing about your sideboard: it doesn't look like you've got enough blue cards to run Force of Will as things stand right now. When I still had Forces on retainer, I was running quads of Prized Amalgam and (sideboard) Mindbreak Trap/Disrupting Shoal, and I was running Whirlpool Riders instead of Balustrade Spies. Bear in mind that without a second blue card, this deck literally cannot cast Force, and also bear in mind that Force of Will has gotten much harder to accommodate since we lost Gitaxian Probe.

    Another thought: Surgical Extraction is probably less useful than Leyline of the Void.

    Regarding your questions:
    1) I think it's supposed to help find dredgers and anti-hate cards postboard.
    2) As a caveat, I'm not sold on Dryad, so someone else probably has a better answer. I think the point of the Dryads is that they fuel Force of Vigor and provide fodder for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return without costing mana.
    3) In a list like the one you posted, I'd probably cut back on Dread Return, Nether Shadow, and Balustrade Spy to fit as much anti-artifact/enchantment stuff as possible. If you're losing to Containment Priest, I'd recommend running something like Contagion to supplement the Sickening Shoals.
    4) I'd consider sideboard Unmask to deal with Crop Rotation. This is a situation in which I'd consider upping my blue count. Otherwise, we don't really have answers beyond our discards.
    5) Just don't cast stuff. I've won games without casting anything with this deck. Sure, one tax effect is enough to stop our combos and Thalia speedbumps our attacks, but we can race their life total if they land a tax effect because all our creatures are effectively free.
    6) Yes, but rarely. Rule of thumb is that you don't want to mulligan unless you have neither dredgers nor relevant anti-hate sideboard cards. Other times I've mulliganed have included four-Narcomoeba hands and multiple-Bridge hands with no synthetic discard outlets.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  7. #1427
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    does this deck benefit from the modal land cards?

    there's 1 black creature/land and 2 green creature/land. is this something the deck needs? i know card slots are kind of tight.
    -rob

  8. #1428
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Well, what would you want to use the mana for? What possibilities would it open up that the deck needs/what weaknesses does it help solve?
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  9. #1429
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    it can provide some more ways to access sb color mana and not interfere with the spy plan. the creatures add some more value over a regular land since they can be used with nether shadow and also be used with pitch cards.

    in a last ditch effort they can also be used to help cast things like thug, shambling shell, and stinkweed imp. (or a really slow spy)
    -rob

  10. #1430

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    does this deck benefit from the modal land cards?

    there's 1 black creature/land and 2 green creature/land. is this something the deck needs? i know card slots are kind of tight.
    The creatures, I think not. At least not on maindeck, because they dont really accomplish anything the deck wants to do and the land coming into play tapped serves no purpose other than casting delayed Therapies and paying for taxing effects (which we shouldn't have problems with since we out aggro such decks).

    That said, since the printing of Force of Vigor, it's been suggested to run it alongside Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence as 4 offs as a side against Leyline, since any combination of two of them is enough to get the job done.

    The same can be accomplished with FoV, Nature's Claim and Turntimber Symbiosis, with the added benefit of not disrupting Balustrade, having the mana be immediately useable against taxers and having more outs to artifact hate, like Graffdiger, other than just FoV. Also, Claim gives the opponent less life than Silence.

    Even then, there are the downsides of losing the crature aspect of Dryad and Claim being vulnerable to multiple Leylines at once or a Leyline followed by Chalice on 1 to consider as well.

    In any case, new options are always welcome in a deck that, thanks to it's nature of eschewing the most basic aspect of the game (mana), finds itself getting new tools a lot less often than other strategies.
    Last edited by idc1993; 09-17-2020 at 04:06 PM.

  11. #1431
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Thanks a lot for your answer, I take good note of it.

    Regarding the dual lands, what I see is that they can help us to cast nature's claim (which makes us lose less tempo than FoV) or ghastly demise (less tempo than black shoal/contagion). Free cards are a real bonus but the pitching sometimes delays our start so much that sometimes you lose because you've done nothing during 3 three turns while your opponent, even if he lost is grave hate, can play his deck with no fear of losing to our strategy.
    Now would it be good enough to make the cut ? I don't know.

  12. #1432

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Legolto View Post
    Regarding the dual lands, what I see is that they can help us to cast nature's claim (which makes us lose less tempo than FoV) or ghastly demise (less tempo than black shoal/contagion). Free cards are a real bonus but the pitching sometimes delays our start so much that sometimes you lose because you've done nothing during 3 three turns while your opponent, even if he lost is grave hate, can play his deck with no fear of losing to our strategy.
    Now would it be good enough to make the cut ? I don't know.
    Land followed by Claim loses us the same amount of tempo as FoV since it's still two cards spent from our hand.

    Also, the tapped land is vulnerable to Wasteland and untapped land costs us 3 life which, considering that Leyline using decks tend to be aggro oriented, can be relevant in shortening our window of recovery after the two turn delay we get for dealing with the Leyline.

    As for making the cut, unfortunately I think it doesn't. The whole Leyline dealing package takes too much sideboard space and puts you in a position where you'll be as ready as you can possibly be to face it but you'll also be vulnerable to almost everything else.
    Last edited by idc1993; 09-21-2020 at 09:29 AM.

  13. #1433

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Legolto View Post
    Thanks a lot for your answer, I take good note of it.
    Always happy to contribute with my pet deck's discussion.

    Hopefully, one day it'll be viable enough to face a field that's prepared for it instead of just preying on unsuspecting metas.

  14. #1434

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I got my set of once upon a Time and it Is good indeed. Makes my Mulligan so less frequent.

    How does your side look actually?

  15. #1435

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    I got my set of once upon a Time and it Is good indeed. Makes my Mulligan so less frequent.

    How does your side look actually?
    Dredgers
    2 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    Recurring Creatures
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Ichorid
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Utility
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian

    Combo Package
    1 Whirlpool Drake
    2 Balustrade Spy
    4 Dread Return
    1 Terror of the Peaks

    Side:
    3 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Serum Powder

  16. #1436

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+


  17. #1437

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    This list does not seem solid. Could you explain your cards choices?
    What's wrong with it?

    Card choices were pretty standard.
    - 14 dredgers
    - 4 of every recurring creature
    - 2 Hogaaks since it helps the beatdown plan by entering as early as turn 2 or with the aid of tokens after a failed combo attempt, accelerates Dread Return when you have 2 black creatures (easy with Bridges and Therapies) and reduces the number of Returns needed for the combo kill by one, since you can bring in Terror of the Peaks and cycle both of them for the kill. Also it gives any unnecessary stuff in the yard a use
    - Terror of the Peaks instead of Flayer of the Hatebound because it trades a bit of the immediate impact of the latter (4+5 damage it does on its own) for being able to work with Hogaak and Zombie tokens, since it triggers from stuff entering your battlefield from anywhere instead of just from your grave
    - Once Upon a Time smooths down opening hands by finding dredgers and has the added potential to work as acceleration by finding Wraith
    - Balustrade Spy as the deck's little "I Win" button
    - Whirlpool Rider fills the slot of the 3rd Balustrade Spy because, after I changed the 4th Force of Negation for a 4th Serum Powder in the side, I needed a 9th Blue card maindeck as to maintain 16 (Force's magic number) blue cards to feed the FoW and FoN package.
    - Sideboard consists of 4 green Forces against Leyline and 7 blue Forces against everything else
    - Serum Powder works to increase the chance of opening with Force of Vigor in hand. I added the 4th because finding FoV against Leyline is just THAT important.

    Here's a previous post of mine with further insight on my thought process when building my list
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1080955
    Last edited by idc1993; 10-21-2020 at 07:52 PM.

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