That, my good sir, is a beautiful find.Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau
I was building upon the idea of Gravecrawler - theoretically it'd allow us to trigger Vengevine. It'd require having 2 untapped Dakmor Salvage on the field and at least 1 other zombie on the field. Mayhaps as a finishing blow?
Other options (maybe to combine with Gravecrawler and Vengevine):
- Delraich
- Demon of Death's Gate
- Scourge of Nel Toth
- Nether Traitor
Delraich & Demon - easy alternate casting costs. If not in your opening hand, it can be fed to Ichorid. Sucks that Daze/FoW works against it though. Same goes for Scourge, but that BB probably is a problem. Maybe as a 1-/2-off. Seems good for the lategame.
Nether Traitor unfortunately isn't cast but just returns to the battlefield.
Take a look at this monstrosity:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmoor Salvage
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
4 Gravecrawler
4 Vengevine
2 Scourge of Nel Toth
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Gitaxian Probe
Slowest build so far, but capable of dropping some bombs if you manage to live long enough. I might be taking this a step too far now though.
I think, it's better to fit Dread Returns back, as it will work from the graveyard and return 20/20 Trolls. Searching for the game-ending blowouts, you will return to the normal combo-build step by step.
Salvage Titans are the key engine in my Salvage Titan combo deck, so I quickly remembered it's ability to return to hand from the grave)
You're right. But Dread Return cares about FoW/Daze. Gravecrawler, Gravecrawler into x Vengevines doesn't. The Gravecrawlers don't have to resolve to trigger the Vengevines.
When falling back on DR, you'd have to reintegrate CT so you actually get to resolve it and at that point you might as well just spend the few slots needed to add the combo back in.
We both agree the regular combo version is best. As for Horde Mode, the one with Baubles and a couple of Salvage Titans is probably the most streamlined iteration. Pushing it past that equals too much inbreeding.
CT is a must.
This deck wants to dredge; adding LED or FoW majorly reduces the quality of dredges.
New zombie will replace Shadow in my build. I can't wait.
Horde Mode is cute. DR combo is better.
Okay, fair enough > So you're constructing horde just because.If you're looking hard at Gravecrawler (with Dakmor) or Bloodghast;
Ghast works with Undiscovered Paradise potentially
Dakmor Salvage works with Ashen Ghoul too. If we're using mana, Prized Amalgam might be competing with this card, as Ghoul has haste.
So the overly inbred list would look like this:Okay, fair enough > So you're constructing horde just because.
Ghast works with Undiscovered Paradise potentially
Dakmor Salvage works with Ashen Ghoul too. If we're using mana, Prized Amalgam might be competing with this card, as Ghoul has haste.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmoor Salvage
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
4 Gravecrawler
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Undiscovered Paradise
28 recurring creatures is pretty cool. Undiscovered Paradise probably makes for more value than Gitaxian Probe and is equally useless in the yard, so that'd be desirable over Probe.
It's silly. I love it. It's certainly more elegant than the Vengevine iteration.
Have you done any additional testing whith this?
I cant imagnine dredge without therapy, dr and bridge
All it takes is a little creativity and balls of steel.
G1, it does well vs. fair decks (since those play a lot less creatures than you, have to care about them dying and a lot of their cards are dead vs. you) but you're close to dead vs. anyCombo & a couple of quick DRS. Don't forget that especially Manaless actually is just a beatdown deck that threatens with a combo finish. As long as your opponent respects that, you have a hard time pulling it off. The only times you do pull it off is when you either get such a force on the field that you can strip their hand before comboing or when your opponent doesn't play blue. More often than not you just win on Ichorid beats, so why not run 20-28 "Ichorids" over the regular 12? The same goes for Bridge from Below - it's such a lightning rod (and for good reason) that the times you actually get to abuse it are just few, so why not switch those for something that doesn't care about what your opponents' creatures are doing? And if you're dumping Bridge anyway, why not run a number of Vengeful Pharaoh? It nicely kills off the few creatures they actually do have and dare to send your way.
G2 & G3 is the usual struggle.
Don't get me wrong, I prefer the 16 creature Balustrade Spy version b/c it can steal games with the combo finish, but I can see Horde Mode (especially the first 20 creature, 16 Timewalk build) as a meta predator if the meta is soft enough to it. The 16 Timewalks might even allow you to get some creatures on the field before Grafdigger's Cage hits the field, allowing you to nab the game in the process. That's probably just a pipedream though.
Edit: It looks like someone is living the dream:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=100033
First at a SCG IQ 2 weeks ago. Iona and Elesh Norn seem like odd SB choices though - resolving DR should mean winning on the spot and the standard combo already does this for you.
Iona might just be some nice tech vs. Miracles though. Resolve it on white and you don't have to worry about Terminus messing up your combo. Just turn it sideways a couple of times and you're done.
Last edited by Echelon; 04-04-2016 at 06:51 AM.
Thats the problem my friend. What sb pln do you have in mind?
Consdering amalgam fow plan seems more viable. If i take this deck id take the bfb version. My free guy stuff would be:
4 ichorid
4 moebas
4 shadow
2 prized amalgam
This makes a total of 14 blue cards MD (i run whirlpool rider) to pitch fow. Problably my side would look like this:
4 FoW
4 M. Trap
3/4 Shoal
3 unmask
I'm in the same boat.
Although;
If any of your fellaz take out this Horde version to a Legacy night, call me curious as to how you go.
The blue version I'm fiddling with at is ~17-18 blue (4 Force, 4 Moeba, 4 Probe, 3 Rider, 2-3 Amalgam)
I'm running the typical 4 Bridge, Therapy, Icky, Shadows, 15 dredgers etc.
I would like all 4 Force of Will & Prized Amalgam in the main if possible, but I'm still not happy with that list yet.
If I was going to take this deck out for a run tomorrow, I'd want a side similar to what you're suggesting GoldenCid.
RE: Prized Amalgam
I did some goldfishing with 4 PA in the main (proxies obviously), and so far for me it hasn't felt like the card I thought it might be.
Anyone else feeling the same way?
Reason being;
(thinking out loud here)
One list I'm thinking of, is simply replacing Shadow with Amalgam for max. blue count.
Icky is a regular target of extraction, so that leaves only 'Moeba as the trigger for PA
PA might not help much if your opponent is smart and targets Icky for extraction. Extracting 'Moeba from there?
Excluding Shadow for PA is a no-bo for me.
BFB version? What am I missing here?
As for SB, that'd probably be all black stuff. I don't own FoWs. Judging by our buddies' performance in Roanoke, it might be viable.
The thought never crossed my mind to just switch Nether Shadow for Amalgam 1-on-1, precisely b/c you need to trigger Amalgam. I do think it's a good addition to the decks core though, seeing as the regular build sometimes has a real craving for some extra bodies.I'm in the same boat.
Although;
If any of your fellaz take out this Horde version to a Legacy night, call me curious as to how you go.
The blue version I'm fiddling with at is ~17-18 blue (4 Force, 4 Moeba, 4 Probe, 3 Rider, 2-3 Amalgam)
I'm running the typical 4 Bridge, Therapy, Icky, Shadows, 15 dredgers etc.
I would like all 4 Force of Will & Prized Amalgam in the main if possible, but I'm still not happy with that list yet.
If I was going to take this deck out for a run tomorrow, I'd want a side similar to what you're suggesting GoldenCid.
RE: Prized Amalgam
I did some goldfishing with 4 PA in the main (proxies obviously), and so far for me it hasn't felt like the card I thought it might be.
Anyone else feeling the same way?
Reason being;
(thinking out loud here)
One list I'm thinking of, is simply replacing Shadow with Amalgam for max. blue count.
Icky is a regular target of extraction, so that leaves only 'Moeba as the trigger for PA
PA might not help much if your opponent is smart and targets Icky for extraction. Extracting 'Moeba from there?
Excluding Shadow for PA is a no-bo for me.
As for taking Horde Mode out for a spin - some time ago I traded away my Mishra's Baubles and can't stand the idea of paying 30+ euros for such stupid cards. Also, the next tourney I attend I plan to take a new build of my Nic Fit. So mayhaps sometime after that. So many ideas, so few tournaments (or so little time to attend them) to put them to the test.
Regarding the blue version with force of will, I was wondering if Shoal is still a good sideboardcard now there's Amalgam to push up the amount of blue cards. I always thought of Shoal as the next best thing besides force, but the 'next best thing' is much worse than force, and often just a blue card making force more reliable. Now there's Amalgam as an additional blue card for Force. Would you guys still run Shoal?
And I was thinking about Serum Powder instead. If it's in hand, it's another shot at an opener containing force (or another strong opener). And if it's dredged away, it's equally as useless as Shoal would have been in the graveyard. What do you think?
After Amalgram I think Foce of Will is the obvious choice regardless of whether or not you MD or SB it, because now you can SB out Nether Shadow and have up to 20 blue cards supporting it without losing any velocity. As for Shoal, it is either added % to counter Rest in Peace or Infernal Tutor so you have to ask yourself whether or not you value that enough to play it - personally I do.
I think you just MD Chancellor, Amalgram, Waverider and SB in Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal vs your most difficult match ups like Miracles and Storm, altho' there is an argument for wasting 4 SB slots on Waverider to hide your SB plan.
I don't understand why people are discussing lists without Dread Returns, you just lose vs Lands and random SB cards for what compensation?
Yeah, you clearly don't. That's OK, I know noone likes to read more than just the last couple of posts.
The main reason is just because we can. And why shouldn't we? We know the deck can have trouble resolving the combo, so why shouldn't we give omitting the combo in its entirety a try? Where we lose some ground vs. Lands, we gain some vs. chalice/tax.dec and our G1 vs. ANT/TES/T1 combo can't get much worse anyway.
Compare it with what's happening with Elves! at the moment. They have trouble resolving Natural Order (a card that also says "I win" and as such is considered near-holy in the Elves!-deck), so they replace it with something they actually get to resolve (and to some good results, so far. Apparently slaughtering the sacred cow produced a rather tasty steak). Why wouldn't we try the same thing? Sometimes it's good to switch things up, to confirm that what we're doing is still that which yields the best results for us.
I've tried and posted more lists on Manaless Dredge in the last 3 incarnations of the thread than anyone else on the Source, try reading thru the archive and you can find the "man plan" builds that were used to grind thru Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction. Trust me it isn't going to win you any game 1s you wouldnt have won already but it will probably lose them. Nobody really plays Tormod's Crypt or Surgical Extraction anymore, so you just push back your fundamental turn and open yourself up to hate for no compensation in the metagame that I am aware of today.
Youre welcome to try it tho'
Agreed. However I don't want to side out Shadow completely, as extraction is still a thing where I play.
Shoal is obviously not Force, but potentially having 8 answers to RiP in a deck that can't mulligan, is much better than 4.
Now we have PA, Force is now definitely into viable territory, whereas before it was borderline questionable given we can't mulligan. But the amount of 3-cmc gravehate is pretty thin to satisfy Shoal. I'm gonna have to take the deck for real-world testing against humans before I make a call on this.
Yup. Luckily the meta hasn't changed since the last time the man plan was posted and we didn't get any new toys either.
Seeing as Eldrazi run both CotV and Warping Wail, I reckon the man plan has more potential to push through that the combo version, even with FoWs.
But as I already said (multiple times now): I still prefer the combo version over the man plan simply b/c it gives you the ability to steal games out of nowhere.
The newer Eldrazi deck makes it hard even for LED-dredge to win, given Bridges don't stand a chance of staying in the yard. So yeah, the man-plan probably does have a better chance in game1 here given the sheer number of bodies we could field. However, I still want that combo finish too.
My good sir, do I have a list for you:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmoor Salvage
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
3 River Kelpie
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
And we might be able to omit River Kelpie and just go for 3 Flayer of the Hatebound as DR targets and add the 4th Phantasmagorian back in.
That could be a fairly entertaining multiplayer deck.
I like Pharoah in this list. The only thing I would be wary of is hitting too many of them early, where we screw up our slow-dredges. 3 feels like the right number.
I think you're right about 4 Phants, I'd want that too. No bridges might hurt our chances of landing a DR at all, given we'd be playing out our deck slower, making our DR/combo turn more vulnerable. Some testing against blue & DRS decks will give a good idea as to whether the DR plan is worth pursuing.
3 Dakmor looks like the right number given I wouldn't want to dredge for 2 *by choice*, unless I could swing for the kill.
I have to wonder though.
If we're playing Dakmor, it opens up the possibility of playing Raven's Crime.
Not saying we should, just thinking out loud. It could be used to set up a Therapy, or to form some sort of control where you dredge Dakmor every turn and force them into topdecking, while you beat them with creatures. Or you could *crime* yourself
I guess this all depends on whether the DR package is worth the space??? If not, Crime & some Serum Powder etc. might be worth a shot?
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