Hi, please find how I have builded my list with leyline :
It is possible to play with leyline but you have to modify your list to include discard on yourself. Thanks to that, you can have Turn 1 Leyline + your dredge discarted, and moreover you can mulligan to find your leyline ! It is a big impact for your SB and impact also your MD, but you want to include to the 75 cards :
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of void
4 lion eye’s diamond
4 unmask
4 serum powder (to increase the % to find leyline and force)
Total : 20 cards !
Place have to be done in the SB but also MD.....
My list:
4 Ichorid
4 Unmask
4 Force of Vigor
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Street Wraith
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Serum Powder
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Lion's Eye Diamond
Unmask and force of vigor are main deck because there is no more place in SB, and can be useful G1 contrary to leyline/led/serum.
This list is less powerful G1 because balustrade spy is not here ( to make place), but you have a really plan with leyline and you don’t concede against bojuka bog. You can hardly search your leyline or your force because you can mulligan, which is not common for Manaless :)
I hope you will like it !
Hell yeah. Might try your list out this week.Originally Posted by Bougnat
DDD / Death & Taxes
I think Unmask is something worth revisiting. It was always one of those cards I really wanted to try, but never could fit it in.
Unmask put in a lot of work for me back when Hollywood's Blue list was the build of choice, often exceeding the upside of running Force of Will.
*Responds to Hollywood himself about Hollywood.*
DDD / Death & Taxes
I think the key is using Unmask out of the sideboard. You're ideally only going to need it when your hand is depleted and you need to get things rolling again. Theoretically, this is only plausible once you've cast something like Force or another "free" spell.
Of course, you can run it main which is fine. I just think Manaless doesn't need that discard effect until you really start casting spells.
What do you think is the best way to play Street Wraith against things like Elvish Reclaimer into Bojuka Bog, and Tormod's Crypt? I have been slow-rolling it, and then activating Wraith after they search up Bog/pop Crypt and I've discarded a new dredger after. But I was playing against Depths and I started to think maybe I should activate Wraith early to force them to Bog or Crypt, and then rebuild from there.
Interesting new spoiled card:
Once Upon A Time
Digs deep like Stinky to find a dredger or combo piece. Ups the green count for Vigor. It can instant res to even look for Wraith or Macabre.
The bad? Can be countered or taxed.
I think it’s a real good card:
- it’s green
- you have to play it first, this mean you can even against a blue deck discard T1 your dredger, and play one upon a time as instant during T2 opponent to find your street wraith and cycle !
After Test, Once Upon a Time is a wonderfull card !
- it's a green card (for force of vigor)
- can be cast during the unkeep T1 of opponent (so without any answer than force of will)
- can be cast to find street wraith of course, but also phantasmagorian, or an ichorid if you have phantasmagorian in the GW, or a better dredger......
- can be cast as an answer to Surgical Extraction ! to find street wraith or at least another dredger if you have only one in GW
- can be cast as an answer to show and tell to find our Balustrade Spy ! I ll add now a Progenitus to my SB .... :)
- can be cast to find Faerie Macabre in some match up
probably other possibility but it's already enougth to play them
What did you cut to find room to play it? I'm thinking it has to be a four-of, as it's worthless if not in opening hand/first-draw.
I think of the this card as a fake dredger in the opening hands; sure, it doesn't help after the first, but it can improve a hand that already has GGT, which Stink or Thug cannot do.
I would pull a mixture of Shells and Thugs equaling a full set of Once Upon A Time. It will act to get dredgers up to 14-16 depending on the build.
A Dread Return, a combo creature, a Hogaak Arisen Acropolis and a Phantasmagorian is a good start, those are the lowest value cards in the deck fwiw. You do not cut Dredgers if you want to play through Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt effects, it's a Manaless Dredge No, No.
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hogaak, Arisen Acropolis
3 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant
Another possible toy in the set:
Ayara, First of Lockthwain. BBB. Elf Noble.
Whenever ~ or another black creature ETB under your control, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
T, sac another black creature - draw a card.
No way. Shambling Shell is by far the weakest card in that list. And who Surgicals dredgers?? They should be targeting critters like Ichorid. And going by your dredging numbers, I only cut 2-4 dredgers in comparison: most if not all SSs. You should be able to play around TC; I did it fine with 12 dredgers + 4 Sphinx.
And you cut Phanty to three. I believe that is a big mistake. OUAT puts pressure to find the engine: Troll + Phant. Why are you trimming the best combo we have? Seems bad.
I think space should be made by either cutting down the DR package or CC, if you run it.
The deck is almost there; we now just need one more Ichorid/Narc level critter because Shadow/Amalgam (my opinion) don't cut it.
I think I've played this deck longer than anyone else on this site, the people who cut Shambling Shells generally have little to no experience actually playing through hate. Combo creatures, Dread Return and Hogaak are the best cards to cut because they're the most conditional to play, and as good as Phantasmagorian is to gold fish the main problem with it is that it over commits you into hate post-board - I cut it for SB cards probably more than most of the other cards.
I've had this conversation with novices probably more times than I can recall, you'll learn one way or another how important the redundancy is when you stop face rolling blue decks game 1.
Be humble final fortune, you are not the only one playing this deck for a long time and you don’t have only novice reading / answering to this primer
Both of you are wright. From my point of view, shambling shell is necessary for the redondancy ... but it’s also the weakest card of the deck. Last weeks we have all increased the number of shambling shell because it s a green card for force of vigor, and the number of good green card for Manaless is really poor. Now, with once upon a time it’s different : we have a correct/good green card to add.
We should now consider shambling shell as it was since the beginning , the 13th and more dredger of our deck. Personally I’ll keep 2 shambling shell (for 14 dredger) and will add 4 once upon a time.
Last thing seen during test for Once upon a time :
G2 : It possible to play once upon a time, find a narcomoeba and cast force of will thanks to this blue card
You should know better that writing about the quantity of time with the deck is not an argument... Indirectly calling me a novice and inexperienced isn't healthy for anyone here. Try to keep this toxic-free.
Shells are bad no matter how long you have played with them. I wrote, "It's the weakest card in the deck," and it's true. Dredge 3 is absolutely terrible when even Dredge 4 is almost bad too. Both Shells and Thugs are really only dredged to connect to the more powerful dredgers. I believe OUAT replacing Shells can act as a psedo-Stinkweed Imp that can level out to be even a Grave-Troll at times. All at the cost of being interactive; it's a gamble to rely so heavily on Troll and Imp, but it's worth the risk to me.
I play four Phants, while you play three +1 Shell. You may be able to grind through posthate games better when facing "Bog effects," I can accelerate faster through popped RiPs, Cages and Voids. I call this difference bad because I believe your priorities are slightly mixed up, not "indirectly-you-are-noob." The deck has had issues with permanent-based hate for the longest time, but now with FoV the deck has decent chances against that hate. You want as many Phants as you can get your hands on posthate against LoV-like permanents. I'll give you an example:
I was running Aggro Loam with postboard LoV, and my opponent was on Manaless. They poppped LoV with FoV, but they still couldn't come back in time. The mu is in my favor, yes, but I saw that his explosiveness could have been more if there was a Phant in the gy, which there wasn't.
To continue, another problem with this deck is it can have issues racing faster combo decks. In most if not all games, pre/postboard, I believe four Phants are necessary. Turbo Depths is unique here because with the printing of Reclaimer, it's a very difficult matchup: Thoughtseize, Elf, and Crop all in the mainboard. Still, against traditional combo, Phant will pull more weight than an extra Dredge 3.
I'll be a little toxic here, too: you have more experience than anyone here, yet you think people surgical dredgers...
Or Prized AmalgamLast thing seen during test for Once upon a time :
G2 : It possible to play once upon a time, find a narcomoeba and cast force of will thanks to this blue card
Experience matters, you're replacing the engine of a deck with a card that can be countered or discarded, that is completely antithetical to what makes the deck strong vs its good match ups.You should know better that writing about the quantity of time with the deck is not an argument... Indirectly calling me a novice and inexperienced isn't healthy for anyone here. Try to keep this toxic-free.
Shells are bad no matter how long you have played with them. I wrote, "It's the weakest card in the deck," and it's true. Dredge 3 is absolutely terrible when even Dredge 4 is almost bad too. Both Shells and Thugs are really only dredged to connect to the more powerful dredgers. I believe OUAT replacing Shells can act as a psedo-Stinkweed Imp that can level out to be even a Grave-Troll at times. All at the cost of being interactive; it's a gamble to rely so heavily on Troll and Imp, but it's worth the risk to me.
I play four Phants, while you play three +1 Shell. You may be able to grind through posthate games better when facing "Bog effects," I can accelerate faster through popped RiPs, Cages and Voids. I call this difference bad because I believe your priorities are slightly mixed up, not "indirectly-you-are-noob." The deck has had issues with permanent-based hate for the longest time, but now with FoV the deck has decent chances against that hate. You want as many Phants as you can get your hands on posthate against LoV-like permanents. I'll give you an example:
I was running Aggro Loam with postboard LoV, and my opponent was on Manaless. They poppped LoV with FoV, but they still couldn't come back in time. The mu is in my favor, yes, but I saw that his explosiveness could have been more if there was a Phant in the gy, which there wasn't.
To continue, another problem with this deck is it can have issues racing faster combo decks. In most if not all games, pre/postboard, I believe four Phants are necessary. Turbo Depths is unique here because with the printing of Reclaimer, it's a very difficult matchup: Thoughtseize, Elf, and Crop all in the mainboard. Still, against traditional combo, Phant will pull more weight than an extra Dredge 3.
I'll be a little toxic here, too: you have more experience than anyone here, yet you think people surgical dredgers...
I don't think people Surgical Extraction Dredgers, I KNOW people Surgical Extraction Dredgers because I've seen it. Whether or not that is the best stratgy vs Manaless is irrelevant, having your first Dredger RFGed is something that you must have an answer to - and that answer is generally redundancy.
Go ahead and cut Shambling Shells and Golgari Thugs and see what happens, it's only a matter of observation. People have tried every thing under the sun to cut Shambling Shell, Serum Powder was already there and it's uncounterable, and it has never worked out.
I cut Once Upon a Time fron the deck already because it's not particularly helpful and feeds into counter spells. It's worse than Gitaxian Probe, and that card wasn't even that great. So good luck.
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