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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1441
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Awesome, thanks! With Surgical being the most common sideboard hate I think the 1-of Misdirection will be ok until I get something else (Shoal/more FoN.)

    Just so I'm clear, this is what you suggest:

    1) Put Thassa's Oracle in the sideboard, which is perfectly fine with me. I have a Flayer of the Hatebound I can play maindeck, easy swap.
    2) Add in Hogaak; I think I can put 2 copies in, but I'm not sure where to cut. Maybe -1 Thug, -1 Street Wraith? I want to keep both green and blue counts high enough for sideboard forces, so Amalgam and Shambling Shell are pretty necessary as 4-of's.
    3) Thank you!
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  2. #1442

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Awesome, thanks! With Surgical being the most common sideboard hate I think the 1-of Misdirection will be ok until I get something else (Shoal/more FoN.)

    Just so I'm clear, this is what you suggest:

    1) Put Thassa's Oracle in the sideboard, which is perfectly fine with me. I have a Flayer of the Hatebound I can play maindeck, easy swap.
    2) Add in Hogaak; I think I can put 2 copies in, but I'm not sure where to cut. Maybe -1 Thug, -1 Street Wraith? I want to keep both green and blue counts high enough for sideboard forces, so Amalgam and Shambling Shell are pretty necessary as 4-of's.
    3) Thank you!
    My suggestions are:

    1) Either run Flayer/Terror (works with Hogaak and Bridge) alongside Oracle in the main or instead of it altogether. Don't waste sideboard space with alternate wincons.

    2) If you want specific protection against Surgical, run Faerie and/or Surgical yourself and DON'T SHAVE OFF WRAITHS. Misdirection is too fringe and answers too little.

    3) You can shave 2 Shells or 1 Shell and 1 Thug for Hogaak since 14 dredgers is enough with OUAT and your green count has already hit the 16 card mark for FoV. NEVER SHAVE WRAITHS since they are the deck's last source of speed (especially with OUAT) and also protect you from Surgical and Faerie in these BR Reanimator infested times.

    4) Though Wraiths and OUAT's are in the "nearly-useless-if-not-found-in-your-first-eight-cards" side of things, opening hands with Wraith, Phantasmagorian and a high Dredger are far too good to have their chances reduced by having less than 4 of any of them (you can shave Pantasmagorians post board).
    Last edited by idc1993; 11-12-2020 at 12:13 PM.

  3. #1443
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Cool, thanks for the fast reply. I'll play it out the way you described. I'll get some additional FoN's when I get the chance.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  4. #1444

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Cool, thanks for the fast reply. I'll play it out the way you described. I'll get some additional FoN's when I get the chance.
    Always happy to give input about my favorite deck. Made an account solely to participate in this forum, so I'm always lurking around here.

  5. #1445
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What do you think about this list? The differences are Chancellor of the Annex and Creeping Chill. I really like the idea of Chancellor, but there is no way I would cut Once Upon a Time (which is not in the list.) Is Chancellor a viable sideboard plan?

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27945&d=421641&f=LE
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  6. #1446

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What do you think about this list? The differences are Chancellor of the Annex and Creeping Chill. I really like the idea of Chancellor, but there is no way I would cut Once Upon a Time (which is not in the list.) Is Chancellor a viable sideboard plan?

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27945&d=421641&f=LE
    Chancellor helps protect you against turn one discards, "regains" turn parity by skipping your opponent's 1st turn and serves as a DR target for beatdown. I wouldn't trade OUAT for it, but it is decent maindeck as a meta call. In the side, maybe if you're putting all you got into trying to go off before hate hits, but it only buys you one turn IF you have it in your opener.

    As for Chills, they buy you extra time vs Burn, Depths and Sneak while accelerating your clock by being extra "Ichorid hits" (even through Grafdigger's Cage). Overall they're very good if you're fond of the aggro approach (you might even want to consider Silversmote Ghoul if you want to go full horde mode). Personally, since LED dredge is the faster aggro, If I'm playing Manaless I rather keep the beatdown as a backup plan and focus on the combo side of the deck. Thus, I always jump straight to cards that work towards both ends.
    Last edited by idc1993; 11-13-2020 at 08:13 AM.

  7. #1447
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yeah I'm sold on Hogaak x2, regardless. I just think the strategy of Chancellor + Dread Return could really put a lot of pressure on opponents, giving time to enact the beatdown plan. I was thinking it might be an idea to sideboard Chancellors for the combo package (3x Spy/1x Oracle) in situations where we can't get under hate. Then it's a matter of swapping whichever cards for Force of Vigor (I'm not anywhere near competent in sideboarding.) That was the idea, so the sideboard would look like this:

    4x Force of Vigor
    4x Force of Will
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    4x Chancellor of the Annex
    2x Surgical Extraction


    I'm not sure how effective it is, but the seeming upside of Once Upon a Time is that it grabs one of the 8 blue creatures to feed Force of Will (Narco/Amalgam) but I think it would still need to be at least 15 cards for mimimal use. I'm at 13 right now, so I don't know if sideboarding Force of Will is correct alongside Chancellor.

    Is there an option to board differently than Force of Will? It seems like a stretch even when going up to 16 cards.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  8. #1448

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Is there an option to board differently than Force of Will? It seems like a stretch even when going up to 16 cards.
    You see, Manaless always had two siding strategies, blue for countering threats or black and green for dealing with them after they hit.

    As far as my time with the deck goes, I've never seen anyone else (other than me) who was mad enough to try and fit both approaches together into the same board.

    If you're having space issues, you can always try to focus solely on one approach by getting Contagion, to deal with Containment Priest and Scavenging Ooze, and Dryad Arbor-Reverent Silence/Turntimber Symbiosis-Nature's Claim wirh FoV to deal with the likes of Leyline and Cage (Silence is vulnerable to Cage and Claim is vulnerable to more than one Leyline).

    That said, I think Chancellors go better with the blue approach. So, without FoN, if you want to up your blue count you can replace any number of Spies with Whirlpool Rider/Drake and you can even consider temporarily replacing OUAT with Sphinx of Foresight (worse in singles or when drawn but beter in multiples).
    Last edited by idc1993; 11-13-2020 at 03:59 PM.

  9. #1449

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    As always informative and available

  10. #1450
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Sleaved this up and I am *addicted*. This is an incredibly cool deck. I opted for zero Hogaak for now because I wanted to squeeze in Chancellors. This is my starting list:

    4x golgari grave-troll
    4x stinkweed imp
    4x golgari thug
    3x shambling shell
    4x narcomoeba
    4x ichorid
    3x nether shadow
    4x street Wraith
    4x phantasmagorian
    4x prized amalgam
    3x balustrade spy
    1x thassa's oracle
    3x chancellor of the annex
    4x once upon a time
    4x cabal therapy
    4x bridge from below
    3x dread return

    Sideboard
    4x force of vigor
    4x force of will
    2x force of negation
    1x mindbreak trap
    2x surgical extraction
    2x faerie macabre


    Maindeck has been configured to give 15 green cards and 15 blue cards post-board. I don't know if that is enough, but I've seen lists that trim even lower than that.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  11. #1451

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Maindeck has been configured to give 15 green cards and 15 blue cards post-board. I don't know if that is enough, but I've seen lists that trim even lower than that.
    According to FoW calculations done by someone smarter than me the suggested minimum number of cards to reliably cast a Force is 16 (including the Forces themselves).

    If you want a 16th slot for both blue and green you can try Progenitus since it also has the added benefit of giving you extra time after Spy if needed (Show and Tell/Exhume free wins say hello).

  12. #1452
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yes, I know the reliable count is a minimum of 16. This deck doesn't really follow standard conventions, so being a little risky with Forces is par for the course. However, I think I'm going to drop the Force of Wills for other options. I just don't see it as a reliable way to win matches by just 'not losing' to opposing combo decks. I'd rather have ways of fighting those decks with an alternative method, considering I have to actually start my engine before I Force or I end up giving 2 turns minimum for them to rebuild. I have been watching a ton of videos and the most successful versions I've seen, so far, don't use Force of Will; they use Contagion and Force of Vigor.

    I'm also looking at some other options for combo decks: Ashen Riders for Sneak/Show and Iona for Storm/Burn. The combo matchups are also a big reason why I wanted to include Chancellors: slowing them down by a turn is sometimes enough to outrace, at least so far in my limited experience. The hardest combo deck I've faced so far is Turbo Depths. I have literally zero reasonable interaction other than trying to jam a Narcomoeba to block or reanimating a Chancellor to block. Then I have to combo-kill through Crop Rotation > Bojuka Bog. I think that matchup has to be around 20/80 in Depths favor.

    If I add lands to the sideboard for disruption it would have to be the flip-card lands like Blackbloom Rogue or Tangled Florahedron. I'm not sure that's very promising, but otherwise I'd have to cut the Balustrade Spy package. I'm ok with that, I just haven't seen it in practice yet. I guess I'll have to test it, right? The good news is that in the matchups I want lands wouldn't necessarily be Wasteland decks; entering tapped would be a blowout against Wasteland decks.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  13. #1453
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Some noobie questions:

    1) Is Noxious Revival worth exploring? It's green for FoV and there is anti-Surgical/Faerie value.
    2) Are there distinct lists if a specific card is included? Examples are Whirlpool Rider and Creeping Chill.
    3) Are Spirit Gudes (Elvish/Simian) worth sideboarding instead of lands if that route is chosen (for Nature's Claim etc.)? They allow for mana, can't be countered, pay for Daze, and Elvish pitches to FoV.
    4) After reading the primer, I'm unsure if including additional free draws is worth the space (such as Mishra's Bauble) to turbo-charge dredging. In my short experience the best games include Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in my opening hand. Older lists played Gitaxian Probe, which was obviously nutty good. Is there an additional 5+ free draw effect we would want?
    5) Is Once Upon a Time a stock inclusion at this point? It seems incredibly strong and helps with Force of Vigor.

    Sorry for spamming the thread, this is my first true journey into the world of dredge and it's such a drug!
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  14. #1454

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Some noobie questions:

    1) Is Noxious Revival worth exploring? It's green for FoV and there is anti-Surgical/Faerie value.
    2) Are there distinct lists if a specific card is included? Examples are Whirlpool Rider and Creeping Chill.
    3) Are Spirit Gudes (Elvish/Simian) worth sideboarding instead of lands if that route is chosen (for Nature's Claim etc.)? They allow for mana, can't be countered, pay for Daze, and Elvish pitches to FoV.
    4) After reading the primer, I'm unsure if including additional free draws is worth the space (such as Mishra's Bauble) to turbo-charge dredging. In my short experience the best games include Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in my opening hand. Older lists played Gitaxian Probe, which was obviously nutty good. Is there an additional 5+ free draw effect we would want?
    5) Is Once Upon a Time a stock inclusion at this point? It seems incredibly strong and helps with Force of Vigor.

    Sorry for spamming the thread, this is my first true journey into the world of dredge and it's such a drug!
    Just a casual observer of the deck and occasional player, here are my thoughts on the above (in other words, noobie answers, ha!):

    1) Here are the benefits i see from Noxious Revival: puts dredger on top to ensure you get one. Puts a FoV on top if you need to re-draw it. Hides a key card from surgical (or a bridge from being exiled). And it can put a narco back on top if you really need to flip one next turn for the win. These all seem reasonable, but I don't know if its enough to include it. Faerie Macabre provides surgical protection and serves as Ichorid food, which might be more important. Faerie won't help with the rest, but it may be that the "rest" isn't strong enough to justify the occasional corner case. That being said, I don't know that it has been tested in this thread.

    2) I can't speak for the others you mentioned, but a while back there was a "horde mode" version of the deck that forgoes the combo and just means to spam the board with recurring threats. I don't remember if the person who started it did this or if it was something I did, but I ran dakmore salvages, bloodghasts, nether shadows, ichorids, the 3/3 UB dude, and.... ashen ghouls (on top of the usual manaless dredge staples). If your goal was to send an unending amount of creatures, it was great. Not sure it was necessarily tourney worthy, but a fun playtest deck to see how your other deck handles the onslaught. This was a few years ago so who knows what it would look like now with the new additions. So there are probably stock lists that run the ones you mentioned. I have also seen River Kelpie get tested.
    Regarding whirpool rider - I never found it to be the slam dunk that others thought it was. I'd rather just DR my spy and call it game, but there were a couple different lists floating around at the time so maybe it was personal preference. HOWEVER, I was also NOT on FoW so I think if you are going to run those main, you need the blue count that these helped with, and could wheel your hand in a pinch if need be. So, if you run force, you may be more likely to run this.
    Creeping chill - I did use this one and felt it was just ever so slightly not good enough. Maybe in a burn heavy meta the life gain might matter, but if I flip the deck with spy, I win regardless of chills, and if I don't see the spy, i'm only flipping 1, maybe 2, which was never enough to kill them or keep me alive. And, if it is in your opener, its a dead card and its only use is delve, so I don't think it fits, at least with what I am running and have seen most people run.

    3) I think these would fall into the same category of noxious revival, where its REALLY good in certain situations like you mentioned, but they might be too narrow for use in the deck/outside of the opening hand. Especially since they are exiled if it isn't in your opener, you can only delve it, that's it. I don't think daze is really an issue anyway for this deck, is it? Thalia might be more of a problem but given that D&T has a pretty heavy graveyard hate sideboard, that might just be a concession this deck has to make. Pitching to FoV is good too, but there might be some cards that are better suited for that and can serve a double duty. 'gaak pitches, vine dryad and gigapede have all seen play and can pitch to FoV while providing some other value as well.

    4) I think it started that way, but i never played them so i don't know why they went off those. maybe there was a creature count issue.

    5) In my experience yes, but again, i'm not the expert on dredge (long time listener, first time caller). I'm currently on a 'gaak list so the OUaT can be delved away if it isn't in the opener, and if it is, you can bet I'll be having a strong play. I think that card is strong enough to justify running even though its only good in the opener, aside from delving.

    For disclosure, here is what I am running. Its a total net deck from a few pages back that someone put up good results with:

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Bridge from Below

    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Dread Return

    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp

    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid

    4 Vine Dryad
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Phantasmagorian

    Sideboard:

    4 Force of Vigor
    3 Sickening Shoal
    1 Ashen Rider
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Serum Powder

    (SB is off because I don't have all the cards, hence the serum powder to find them, ha!)
    link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1085921
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