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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1081
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    It's b/c those are the somewhat flex slots. Chancellor does what it's intended for only about 40% of the time while you'll have all 4 of your Chills in your library 60% of the time. Chill just "works" more frequently than Chancellor does, which is one reason for me to include it - less cards that do nothing in most situations. I'd rather have a Lightning Helix than nothing at all (which are roughly the choices at hand).
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+


    "Sons of The Cabal!
    Of Golgari!
    My brothers.
    I see in your sideboards the same fear that would take the heart of me.
    A day may come when the courage of Zombies fails, when we forsake our triggers and pay mana for casting our spells, but it is not this day.
    An hour of Leylines and Grafdigger's Cages when the Age of Zombies comes crashing down, but it is not this day!
    This day we dredge!
    By all that you hold dear on this good graveyard, I bid you stand, Horde of 2/2 Zombies!"


    Hey there folks,

    This Saturday I've made 12th position in the 1st Catalan Legacy League tournament of the year with our beloved Manaless Dredge. We have been 59 players, and I've ended 4-2 after losing my 6th round win-and-in vs UB Shadow. Here's my decklist (pretty standard one):

    Maindeck:
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    1 Lotleth Giant
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Prized Amalgam
    1 Progenitus
    3 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Creeping Chill
    4 Dread Return
    Sideboard:
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Vengeful Pharaoh
    4 Contagion
    4 Mindbreak Trap

    I wanted to write a small report, but I've forgot my notes at home so I'll just share some thoughts and doubts instead:

    * I lost 1st round vs Grixis Control; his only hate was 2 Surgical Extraction and 1 Cage, and he hit both Surgicals early in both post-board games (third one was hilarious: I discarded GGT in my first turn, he Extracted it, then I discarded StImp, he Extracted it and then I discarded Shambling Shell and he Snapcaster-Extracted it too). Variance happens, I suppose.
    * Then I won four straight matches: 2-0 vs Turbo Depths (where I comboed him extra fast both games and he didn't find green producers to Crop Rotate into Bojuka), 2-0 vs Goblins (he didn't found his otherwise scarce hate, in fact he flooded terribly both games), 2-1 vs Omni-Tell (where he was faster than me game 2 and he mulliganed to 4 game 3), and 2-0 vs Canadian (he didn't found his hate in time).
    * After round 5, I was last classified at 4-1, so I had to play round 6 vs UB Shadow. He knew what I were playing, won the dice roll, put me on the play, and proceeded to Thoughtseize me for three straight turns, after which he deployed 2 5/5 Death's Shadows and finished me off in a couple turns. I kept a no-dredger hand, and I'm still not sure if this is the correct decision (anyway, had I mulliganed, the Thoughtseizes would have destroyed me even further). Second game I put him on the play and, again, my hand had no dredgers. He Thoughtseized me a couple of times again and I was never really in the game, so the match ended 0-2 for me.

    Now for the thoughts and doubts:

    * I have the feeling that, the bigger the tournament is, the better is this deck; a lot of people doesn't really know how to fight agains us. Only in three of my six matches my opponent put me on the play when he could, for example.
    * I didn't see any dredger (nor Street Wraith to start digging) in any of my two games in match six. That's unfortunate, but statistically has to happen here and there. My question is: What do you do guys in this situation? Do you keep and trust in the Holy Ghost of Topdecking, or mulligan and give a Time Walk to your opponent? If you keep you have 15/49=30.6% chances to hit a dredger in your first draw step (or a 69.4% chances not to hit it, if you prefer); if you mulligan is highly likely that you'll have a dredger in your hand of six, but you'll lose a turn. What is the best line here?
    * Still concerning that match: I suffered heavily targeted discard in both games, so even if my seven had been good enough, I would have had no options to win. I've seen that some lists packs 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard; my doubts here are pretty similar to the last point: Is it really worth to give our opponent a Time Walk in order to not being targeted? I'm starting to see the benefits of this option (e.g. vs ANT, if he doesn't side in Empty the Warrens nor bounce effects, he can't win even if he bring Leyline of the Void against us, so extremely aggressive mulligan into LoS might be a way to win the match).
    * Thinking even a little more of how to beat ANT (which I see as an really difficult pairing), I'm not sold on the Mindbreak Traps; they play currently 8 discard effects and there is no reason for them to sideboard out any of them, so is highly unlikely that we could use our Traps. So the more I think about it, the more Leyline of Sanctity is appealing me.

    In the next weeks I'll keep playing our little monster at my LGS. I'll keep you posted!
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  3. #1083
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by gRR!! View Post
    * Still concerning that match: I suffered heavily targeted discard in both games, so even if my seven had been good enough, I would have had no options to win. I've seen that some lists packs 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard; my doubts here are pretty similar to the last point: Is it really worth to give our opponent a Time Walk in order to not being targeted? I'm starting to see the benefits of this option (e.g. vs ANT, if he doesn't side in Empty the Warrens nor bounce effects, he can't win even if he bring Leyline of the Void against us, so extremely aggressive mulligan into LoS might be a way to win the match).
    * Thinking even a little more of how to beat ANT (which I see as an really difficult pairing), I'm not sold on the Mindbreak Traps; they play currently 8 discard effects and there is no reason for them to sideboard out any of them, so is highly unlikely that we could use our Traps. So the more I think about it, the more Leyline of Sanctity is appealing me.
    On the Leyline of Sanctity argument I found the discussion starting from this post of Michael Keller really enlightening at the time (Summer 2018).

    I would try to go that line, trying to find some space for 4x Creeping Chill.

    Hope this can help.

  4. #1084
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    The MD is my exact same 60
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by gRR!! View Post

    "Sons of The Cabal!
    Of Golgari!
    My brothers.
    I see in your sideboards the same fear that would take the heart of me.
    A day may come when the courage of Zombies fails, when we forsake our triggers and pay mana for casting our spells, but it is not this day.
    An hour of Leylines and Grafdigger's Cages when the Age of Zombies comes crashing down, but it is not this day!
    This day we dredge!
    By all that you hold dear on this good graveyard, I bid you stand, Horde of 2/2 Zombies!"
    I still sometimes say to my friends, "But it is not this day! THIS DAY, WE FIGHT!" Even when it's totally out of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by gRR!! View Post
    * Thinking even a little more of how to beat ANT (which I see as an really difficult pairing), I'm not sold on the Mindbreak Traps; they play currently 8 discard effects and there is no reason for them to sideboard out any of them, so is highly unlikely that we could use our Traps. So the more I think about it, the more Leyline of Sanctity is appealing me.
    I don't think Leyline is necessarily a good answer to Storm. It's a hell of a curveball (I play more Storm than anything else), but that's probably the most you'll get out of it, and most Storm lists run at least two universal bounce spells in the sideboard—usually more. As a Storm player, I find targeted discards or a quick Chancellor of the Annex/Iona to be my major worries from manaless Dredge. If you want to go faster, I'd try Unmask and/or non-budget options to speed up the combo like LED/Faithless Looting.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  6. #1086
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Thank you all for the answers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    The MD is my exact same 60
    Of course it is, man, of course it is

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
    I don't think Leyline is necessarily a good answer to Storm. It's a hell of a curveball (I play more Storm than anything else), but that's probably the most you'll get out of it, and most Storm lists run at least two universal bounce spells in the sideboard—usually more. As a Storm player, I find targeted discards or a quick Chancellor of the Annex/Iona to be my major worries from manaless Dredge. If you want to go faster, I'd try Unmask and/or non-budget options to speed up the combo like LED/Faithless Looting.
    I was interested in hearing the point of view of a Storm player, so thanks! I was not sure if you guys brought your bounce effects against Manaless Dredge; if you do, the Leyline of Sanctity plan is less solid indeed. So I suppose I'll try the Unmask plan instead and see what happens.

    I still don't see which is the best line of play in the 9.7% of cases where we don't see any of our 15 dredgers in our starting hand. If we keep, we have a 52.3% of chances of drawing a dredger in our first two draws; if we mulligan, the possibility of discard to handsize in the first turn drops to 0.0%, but the odds of having a dredge in our first six is 86.2%, and this odds grows to a 90.3% including the first card we draw and to a 93.3% including the second one (this numbers doesn't have in account the scry; if so, they would be even higher. I'm considering a deck of 56 cards because we have Street Wrait to thin it).

    So what I'm trying to tell is:
    * By mulliganing, we almost assure that we will discard a dredger in our second discard step, but we will lost a turn;
    * By keeping, our chances are significantly lesser, but if we are lucky we will discard a dredger at the end of first turn.

    Thoughts?
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  7. #1087
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I typically just take the mulligan. It's much less risky.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    OK, I'll try this approach too (seems reasonable, I was too focused in the "never mulligan" Golden Rule).
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by gRR!! View Post
    I was interested in hearing the point of view of a Storm player, so thanks! I was not sure if you guys brought your bounce effects against Manaless Dredge; if you do, the Leyline of Sanctity plan is less solid indeed. So I suppose I'll try the Unmask plan instead and see what happens.
    People who run Echoing Truth sometimes bring it in to stop zombie tokens and big, reanimated threats; Chain of Vapor is the go-to for stuff you otherwise can't answer like Iona on black. I usually don't board much for the matchup, but if I saw a Leyline out of the sideboard in game 2, I'd definitely pack some answers for game 3. Goblins aren't great if your opponent can flood the board or snap off a Dread Return, so I don't think I'd use Empty against either flavor of Dredge.

    Regarding Unmask, it's a good way to get a dredger into the yard quickly (esp. on the play) or to snipe combo-pieces from a Storm player's hand, but if it fizzles it definitely leaves you in an awkward position, being two cards down. Not totally sure how I feel about it (I'm not running it at the moment), but then again I've always thought the matchup was about even. One thing that's cool about this deck is that I think it's got plenty of room for experimentation.
    Last edited by Ronald Deuce; 01-15-2019 at 04:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  10. #1090
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
    People who run Echoing Truth sometimes bring it in to stop zombie tokens and big, reanimated threats; Chain of Vapor is the go-to for stuff you otherwise can't answer like Iona on black. I usually don't board much for the matchup, but if I saw a Leyline out of the sideboard in game 2, I'd definitely pack some answers for game 3. Goblins aren't great if your opponent can flood the board or snap off a Dread Return, so I don't think I'd use Empty against either flavor of Dredge.

    Regarding Unmask, it's a good way to get a dredger into the yard quickly (esp. on the play) or to snipe combo-pieces from a Storm player's hand, but if it fizzles it definitely leaves you in an awkward position, being two cards down. Not totally sure how I feel about it (I'm not running it at the moment), but then again I've always thought the matchup was about even. One thing that's cool about this deck is that I think it's got plenty of room for experimentation.
    At this moment I'm between LoS and Unmask, here's the pros and cons I see for each of them:

    * LoS is useful against targeted discard and damage (so it works bs Burn, ANT or Grixis), but it puts you a card down, so it Time Walks yourself. This maybe is not a great problem against Burn and slower Grixis Control, but it might be huge against Storm (anyways I see the Storm match as really difficult).
    * Unmask accelerates you a full turn and you can use it targetting you or the opponent, but you can't risk to use it if the opponent packs any kind of countermagic, so is really useful only against Storm or non-blue decks.

    I would like to try Noxious Revival as another way to dodge Surgicals (or messing with Reanimator), but I don't really see how to cram it in the sideboard. Maybe replacing Faerie Macabres?

    I'll try Unmask tomorrow at my LGS. Let's see what happens
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Unmask is valuable in that it can strip away RiP/Grafdigger's Cage before it hits the field. But double timewalking yourself to do so can still be quite the burden.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Well, I played Manaless Dredge this last Thursday at my LGS; we were 8 people, played three rounds and I was 2-1, beating Reanimator 2-1, losing 1-2 vs Enchantress and winning 2-0 vs Death and Taxes.

    * It was the strangest of days, as my dredgers were eluding me during the entire tournament: in 5 of my 8 games I hadn't any dredger in my opening seven, which is variance taken to the max.
    * Anyway I was able to win Reanimator after losing game 1, via double Faerie Macabre game 2 which gave me time to find my dredgers, and after some awkward sideboarding decisions my opponent made game 3 (he kept a hand of turn 1 Pithing and nothing else, and he named Faerie Macabre). This, again, shows how this deck forces opponents to make mistakes.
    * I lost match 2 against Enchantress, this is simply unwinnable (my opponent played 4 Rest in Peace MD!). Even then, I won game 1 after a monstruous misplay (I Dread Returned Lotleth Giant instead of Balustrade Spy with almost no creatures in my GY; fortunately my next dredge gave me Cabal Therapy, another DR and Spy, so I comboed him next turn. He had Elephant Grass since turn 1, so I couldn't win attacking). Game 2 he brought Leyline of Sanctity and Faerie Macabres, and I don't even remember game 3. We are lucky that Enchantress is not in the meta!
    * I didn't see any dredger in my opening hands against D&T match 3, so I had to mulligan both of them. Anyway my opponent did not present any hate (though I managed to strip a Thalia from his hand game 1) and I won the match 2-0. Mulliganing isn't obviously any good, but is not the end of the world as I thought. In game 2, my opponent had an active Jitte that could have killed my Ichorids and/or Narcomoebas (I didn't have any Bridge in the GY), but he didn't.
    * None of my three opponents put me on the play when they could, and at least two of them could have make more. I sided in Unmask in all matches, but I didn't see it or it wasn't necessary. Anyway I won't make any changes to the deck at least until next Thursday.

    Thanks for reading!

    EDIT to add some thoughts (and sorry, I suck at English)
    Last edited by gRR!!; 01-21-2019 at 06:34 AM.
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  13. #1093

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Atreyu View Post
    On the Leyline of Sanctity argument I found the discussion starting from this post of Michael Keller really enlightening at the time (Summer 2018).

    I would try to go that line, trying to find some space for 4x Creeping Chill.

    Hope this can help.
    Leyline of Sanctity, in my opinion, is the best sideboard card in Manaless Dredge because it nullifies some of the deck's most prolific weaknesses and match-ups collapsed into a single card (Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, Storm and fast combo, targeted spells, etc.).

    Does it cost you a turn in the process, sure. But most of the decks that you'd board that card into you have no problem waiting a few turns because they can't do anything prolific to hit your graveyard or hand.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    After being forced to take some mulligans last day and not being punished by that, I'm more and more inclined to agree with you, Michael. I didn't realize that Bojuka Bog targets player, not graveyard. I'll switch the Unmasks for LoS this next Thursday.
    Last edited by gRR!!; 01-23-2019 at 02:25 AM.
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hey there folks,

    Yesterday I played Manaless Dredge at my LGS; we were 9 players, played 4 rounds and I ended 2nd at 3-1. I swapped the Unmasks for Leyline of Sanctities and I was very happy with them. Some thoughts:

    * I had the bye Round 1 (lucky me), but there was a fellow that wasn't playing the round who had a proxied UB Shadow, so we played four games for fun and I won 3-1. When he ran out of discard, I started the engine and he wasn't able to stop me; he won me a game where he Reanimated my lone dredger in the GY and hit me with a huge/huge Death's Shadow shortly after. I sided in LoS, and the game I draw it was really easy as he kept a hand with 2 Thoughtseizes that he had to use on himself. Creeping Chill really shines in this matchup!
    * After this I won 2-0 against B/G Rock (not much to tell here) and 2-0 against Moon Stompy; I were afraid of this matchup, but he only can win if he hits Ensnaring Bridge and Trinisphere (if he only have Bridge we combo him; if he only have Trini we horde him). He had Bridge in the two games and it was not enough. I had to mulligan game 2, but it didn't slow me as much.
    * I lost 3rd round against Slow Depths; I won 1st match, lost 2nd to a fast 20/20 and then in match 3 I started with a hand with LoS, 2 Wraiths and no dredger. I take the chance but I didn't draw any dredger on time so I was trampled upon by Cthulhu again. Oh well.

    I'm very satisfied with the deck perfomance so far, so I'll keep playing it at my LGS next Thursday. I'll keep you posted, thanks for Reading!
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Nice result.

    Creeping Chill has to be hilarious vs. Death's Shadow. Sure, knock your own life total down *flip*
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  17. #1097

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    what is the best way to beat a Turn 0 Leyline of the Void? Is this just an auto scoop, or is it possible to play something out of the Sideboard without completely compromising all of the other matchups?

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Emeraldjsk View Post
    what is the best way to beat a Turn 0 Leyline of the Void? Is this just an auto scoop, or is it possible to play something out of the Sideboard without completely compromising all of the other matchups?
    You have few options. The best approach is to not play this deck when Leyline of the Void is prevalent. If you are compelled to play the deck anyway and refuse to scoop to Leyline, you can try the green package with Dryad Arbors, Reverent Silence, etc.

    From the primer:

    "For all of Manaless Dredge's strengths, the deck certainly has some glaring weaknesses. To address the elephant in the room: this deck effectively loses to a Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace or any other permanent-based hate that goes unanswered. When I originally piloted this deck, I wanted ways to not only facilitate faster Dread Returns but ways to fight resolved hate out of the sideboard. This was more of a proactive way of fighting hate, which worked at the time. With Dryad Arbors in the main, the sideboard was able to be freed up with design space used for cards that just destroyed the aforementioned hate cards.

    The problem with this side-boarding strategy is that the hate has to resolve first, which means you need to have a way to destroy it or lose. Lands out of the sideboard help in conjunction with the Arbors to cast these anti-hate cards. Some people don't think that it's worth it, as this particular sideboard has a tendency to dilute the main-deck and offers little synergy with other cards in the graveyard aside from Dryad Arbor(s). The anti-hate package is also slightly more conditional, as it requires sometimes waiting a full turn for Dryad Arbor to become active in order to cast a Nature's Claim.

    Not really the ideal sideboard these days in a Cage and Peace-heavy meta, but certainly not the worst option in the world.
    "

  19. #1099

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Anybody else running Sphinx of Foresight in the open slots instead of Creeping Chill, filtering for deeper and double dredgers as well as Narcomoebas and recurring creatures is an increase in both consistency and speed. Also keeping a no dredger but one Sphinx hand is really good for SBing out Shambling Shell for Force of Will as well as finding Faerie Macabre vs Reanimator.

    For Manaless it feels like a free Brainstorm, that is kind of ridiculous IMO.

  20. #1100
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Haven't tried it yet. You are right in that it makes your openers a lot better and makes for more keepable hands. It's just that it's live only 40% of the time. The other 60% of the time it does nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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