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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1201
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Thank you! Figured Chill was the cut to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  2. #1202

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Progenitus is worthless, why would I want a card that is useless for Ichorid, Nether Shadow and Hogaak in my deck? High Tide?
    Coming in hot! I asked, so I did it to myself. It was more just a precaution of having to wait a turn, and Prog still works with any pitch card. But that's fearful, and Spy is a fearless list.

    Anything to keep the discussion alive though. My meta is much more likely to play U, grixis, show'n'tell, miracles (ugh). I haven't played a lot of paper recently, but killing critters never seemed especially necessary to me. Containment priest would be a valid concern though, and loading up bullets for that makes sense.

  3. #1203
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    It seems creeping chill is the out for integrating hoggak, admitted by most of people.
    The question still pending for 4 cards: do we keep combo plan or we replace by 4 unmask?
    The 2 are good. Personally I prefer unmask because itís nice with hoggak, but first because it increase cabal therapy. The combo plan is well established and there is no reason to remove too :).

    I think this will depend of your subboard:
    - the counter SB: with force of will/force of negation you need blue cards ó> combo plan MD with whirlpool rider
    - the force of vigor SB: you have the choice.
    - the leyline SB: you prefer 4 unmask

  4. #1204

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Coming in hot! I asked, so I did it to myself. It was more just a precaution of having to wait a turn, and Prog still works with any pitch card. But that's fearful, and Spy is a fearless list.

    Anything to keep the discussion alive though. My meta is much more likely to play U, grixis, show'n'tell, miracles (ugh). I haven't played a lot of paper recently, but killing critters never seemed especially necessary to me. Containment priest would be a valid concern though, and loading up bullets for that makes sense.
    I'm blunt by nature, don't sweat it.

    What makes the creature removal SB plan good is that it's the most consistent SB plans at what it does, you can have 8 (now 12) of the effects and you'll always have a black card to pitch for them. You can go with the flashier SB strategies like Force of Will and the new Modern Horizon's Force of Will to make the SB cards more relevant in other match ups like combo, but the problem is that strategy is less consistent vs anything in particular even if it can work vs everything in general by nature of the cards being blue.

    There are just some match ups where I'm ok with packing it in against, Storm is never going to be great for us because they already have discard for whatever we try to do, but linear decks that have specific strategies like using the graveyard or playing bears are really easy to board against because you have completely non-interactive hate like Leyline of the Void or Faerie Macabre or those decks don't have counters/discard and your answers are going to resolve no matter what.

    In theory, you play this deck because graveyard hate is light, there are a lot of blue decks in the metagame to prey on, those blue decks are keeping away combo and every body else is trying to beat the blue decks with fair decks (so we SB for the fair decks, which happens to be the decks that run Leyline and/or dumb white creatures right now).

    At least that's my logic.

  5. #1205
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I like my Progenitus... Being able to flip my library knowing I will for sure have another attack phase to swing with all my critters is pretty sweet.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  6. #1206

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So it's a total fluke because it was on cockatrice, against a durdle heavy land tax, scroll rack deck. BUT!, I got to draw to 19 cards deep in the deck to find a force of vigor and exploded the guys T0 cage and leyline of sanctity. It felt so so good. Won the turn after, had one street wraith, and drew a other in the interim. Finding hate in the opening 7 is kinda christmas land, but drawing that deep, never dredging, and getti g there. I just wanted to share. Viger feels much better than Will, when it comes to forces. A creatureless durdle deck is a good opponent to play. Double lotleth when all said and done. He never saw a trinisphere, nor a e.tutor before it mattered.

    Casting Hagook through trinisphere is awesome.

  7. #1207
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    How will the new mulligan rule affect manaless dredge? Will opponents just mulligan to hate very game and this we have to mulligan to anti hate every game as well?

  8. #1208
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Lamp View Post
    How will the new mulligan rule affect manaless dredge? Will opponents just mulligan to hate very game and this we have to mulligan to anti hate every game as well?
    I don't think that it changes much for us. Honestly if grave hate is heavily played then put the deck down for a month or two and play something else and come back to manaless later when your local readjusts. The new Mulligan rule helps us find our dredgers or hate when we need to Mulligan, helping our opponents Also as other people have mentioned unmask gets better to help us put something in yard to start going off, otherwise it is a timewalk as usual for us

  9. #1209
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Is the new mulligan official , actually appliqued in tournament ?

  10. #1210

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    Is the new mulligan official , actually appliqued in tournament ?
    Starts from july 12.

  11. #1211
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    Is the new mulligan official , actually appliqued in tournament ?
    They made a big announcement that it was being implemented with core set 2020

  12. #1212

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    With the new mulligan I believe we probably want to be on the unmask game plan. The opponent is going to mulligan to their hate piece, we will mulligan to our anti-hate in force of vigor and unmask ourselves to get the game going on turn 1. This also helps with resiliency as far as play//draw. or am I missing something?

  13. #1213

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Emeraldjsk View Post
    With the new mulligan I believe we probably want to be on the unmask game plan. The opponent is going to mulligan to their hate piece, we will mulligan to our anti-hate in force of vigor and unmask ourselves to get the game going on turn 1. This also helps with resiliency as far as play//draw. or am I missing something?
    My concern is that very few of those mulligans will lead to you getting both Force of Vigor and Unmask in your hand. It's similar to the old problem of the low odds of drawing both Nature's Claim and Elvish Spirit Guide.

  14. #1214
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yup. .4 * .4 = about 16% chance per hand of that happening. Considering we have 2 mulls at best (Force + green card, Unmask + black card and a dredger equals 5 cards after all) we'll have 3 hands to try our luck so that'd be about a 48% success rate after which we also have to keep hitting dredgers to not turn it into a mull to 1. And that's just goldfishing, not even taking into account how often the opponent will have the answer to our Force.

    So yeah, not the best of plans.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  15. #1215

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    [QUOTE=Emeraldjsk;1071235]With the new mulligan I believe we probably want to be on the unmask game plan. The opponent is going to mulligan to their hate piece, we will mulligan to our anti-hate in force of vigor and unmask ourselves to get the game going on turn 1. This also helps with resiliency as far as play//draw. or am I missing something?[/QUOTEG

    Unmasking yourself and going to four cards just to start dredging a turn faster is not worth it, if they do have a hate card, let's say Surgical Extraction, then you've Time Walked yourself for 3 turns compared to 1. Grinding thru' hate, now more than ever, is the way to go as the probability of hate increases.

  16. #1216
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Anyone else playing with Serum Powder in the sideboard now? It's an option to thrown in the ring given the conundrum of:

    a.) With the London Mulligan, opponents will presumably mulligan more aggressively and successfully to hate
    b.) Which would lead a combo deck to prioritize London Mulliganing to anti-hate
    c.) But Manaless really not wanting to mulligan under 7 cards

    At the moment, my SB has 4 Serum Powder, 4 Force of Vigor, 4 Sickening Shoal/Contagion, and flex slots. So far it's the solution I like best, if the aforementioned issue does stick.

  17. #1217

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Anyone else playing with Serum Powder in the sideboard now? It's an option to thrown in the ring given the conundrum of:

    a.) With the London Mulligan, opponents will presumably mulligan more aggressively and successfully to hate
    b.) Which would lead a combo deck to prioritize London Mulliganing to anti-hate
    c.) But Manaless really not wanting to mulligan under 7 cards

    At the moment, my SB has 4 Serum Powder, 4 Force of Vigor, 4 Sickening Shoal/Contagion, and flex slots. So far it's the solution I like best, if the aforementioned issue does stick.
    I think it's legit tech, I used it awhile ago for Leyline of Sanctity.

  18. #1218

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Orin67 had a list over on reddit with some Dryad Arbors and Whirlpool Riders.

    I feel like Griselbrand is better than Whirlpool Rider if we are not in blue. Is our life total a big enough deal? I feel like having to have cards in hand for Whirlpool Rider is more restrictive.

    If Whirlpool Rider is better, is the new Core Set 20 Cavalier of Flame even better for us?

  19. #1219
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Can't pitch red cards to FoW. If you're not on the FoW plan you should probably just run Balustrade Spy.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  20. #1220

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Can't pitch red cards to FoW. If you're not on the FoW plan you should probably just run Balustrade Spy.
    His (Orim67) deck isn't on the FoW plan but he can't use Spy because he has Dryad Arbor maindeck
    Other options that don't require anything:
    Sphinx of Lost Truths
    Bedlam Reveler
    Rowdy Crew

    Requires the opponent to have cards in hand:
    Sandstone Oracle
    Slithermuse

    Requires you to have creatures:
    Tishana Voice of Thunder
    God Eternal Bontu
    Skullmulcher

    Otherwise yes you can play something that requires life total (Grisel) or a more powerful card than Whirlpool Rider that requires cards in hand (Cavalier, Whirlpool Drake)

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