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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1241

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    His list is kind of all over the place, I've been running Dryad Arbor instead of the combo package for awhile and liking it tho'. Reverent Silence is still too inconsistent IMO.
    The combo + Hogaak seems fine to me. Maybe it's my play style, but the Dryads often feel like dead cards. There are always enough black creatures to tap.
    DDD / Death & Taxes

  2. #1242

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I've been doing pretty well with my version:

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Chancellor of the Annex
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    3 Dread Return
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    1 Lotleth Giant
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Prized Amalgam
    1 Greater Mossdog
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    3 Whirlpool Rider

    1 Ashen Rider
    4 Force of Will
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Disrupting Shoal
    2 Sickening Shoal
    3 Force of Vigor

    So far I haven't missed Creeping Chill too much with Hogaak.

  3. #1243

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by easysantiago View Post
    The combo + Hogaak seems fine to me. Maybe it's my play style, but the Dryads often feel like dead cards. There are always enough black creatures to tap.
    Both are ok, at the moment I just like looking for the best possible lists vs blue.dec for consistency.

  4. #1244

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I am thinking of trying the list below for game 1, and then transitioning to the FoW or FoV list game 2. Creeping Chill has got me there a few times and Prized is fuel for both Hogaak and FoW in game 2.

    My local meta is mostly Delver and other fair decks. Any suggestions on the SB?

    MB
    Creatures (48)
    - 3 x Balustrade Spy
    - 4 x Creeping Chill
    - 1 x Flayer of the Hatebound
    - 4 x Golgari Grave-Troll
    - 4 x Golgari Thug
    - 4 x Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    - 4 x Ichorid
    - 4 x Narcomoeba
    - 4 x Nether Shadow
    - 4 x Phantasmagorian
    - 4 x Prized Amalgam
    - 4 x Shambling Shell
    - 4 x Stinkweed Imp
    - 4 x Street Wraith

    Sorcery (4)
    - 4 x Dread Return

    Enchantment (4)
    - 4 x Bridge from Below
    DDD / Death & Taxes

  5. #1245
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    No Cabal Therapy?
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  6. #1246

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    His list is 56.

    My suggestion is always side in force, don't cycle street wraith until the try to cast extraction, discard, or you have a read. Those decks you should usually beat with tight play.

  7. #1247

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    His list is 60. It says 48 creatures + 4 sorceries + 4 enchantments, but the Creeping Chills are mixed in with the creatures, and there are 52 cards listed in that section. He does not have Therapy in his main deck. I think they are more important than the Chills. The ability to kill our creatures and get zombie tokens is huge.

    However, I feel like 1x Chill is not a bad way to make the deck, as it helps give maybe enough of a breather vs. Marit Lage and Burn without dedicating too many slots to it. So maybe 3x Therapy and 1x Chill in the main would be okay.

    If you are going to run both Forces, then a SB could look like this:

    4x Force of Will
    4x Force of Vigor
    4x Sickening Shoal
    3x Leyline of the Void

    Leyline of the Void for graveyard - no Dreadhorde or Snapcaster shenanigans, Sickening Shoal for weenies.

    With the re-release of the Leylines and the London Mulligan starting up, I have heard that more people are running Leylines, so people are running more enchantment removal, so Faerie Macabre may be better. Faerie does give some upsides that Leyline does not. It is a creature. It can protect you against Surgical if needed. It can force the opponent into a misplay.

  8. #1248

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    His list is 60. It says 48 creatures + 4 sorceries + 4 enchantments, but the Creeping Chills are mixed in with the creatures, and there are 52 cards listed in that section. He does not have Therapy in his main deck. I think they are more important than the Chills. The ability to kill our creatures and get zombie tokens is huge.

    However, I feel like 1x Chill is not a bad way to make the deck, as it helps give maybe enough of a breather vs. Marit Lage and Burn without dedicating too many slots to it. So maybe 3x Therapy and 1x Chill in the main would be okay.

    If you are going to run both Forces, then a SB could look like this:

    4x Force of Will
    4x Force of Vigor
    4x Sickening Shoal
    3x Leyline of the Void

    Leyline of the Void for graveyard - no Dreadhorde or Snapcaster shenanigans, Sickening Shoal for weenies.

    With the re-release of the Leylines and the London Mulligan starting up, I have heard that more people are running Leylines, so people are running more enchantment removal, so Faerie Macabre may be better. Faerie does give some upsides that Leyline does not. It is a creature. It can protect you against Surgical if needed. It can force the opponent into a misplay.
    All correct there! I counted CC in creatures; I had Cabal in the SB because I was tinkering with the ratio of Cabal and Creeping Chill.

    Thanks for thorough SB walkthrough.
    DDD / Death & Taxes

  9. #1249
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I think I'm gonna try Chills over Therapies... Hogaak should work fine as counter bait
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  10. #1250
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi,

    Please find the list I m currently testing :


    4 Ichorid
    4 Unmask
    4 Serum Powder
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Golgari Thug
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Gigapede
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Prized Amalgam

    SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
    SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
    SB: 4 Force of Vigor
    SB: 3 Lion's Eye Diamond


    I still maintain leyline of sanctity must be included in you SB, itís the only real solution against bojuka bog. Without, we are a bye for all land decks.

    With contagion and Lionís eye diamond, you have a real chance to mulligan and find the card you want, thatís why they are here. I prefer phantasmagorian rather than gigapede but gigapede is here because we need a minimum of green card for force of vigor.
    Serum of powder is here because we want to reach our extremely powerful cards in SB, and thanks to the new London mulligan the power of this card has increased.

  11. #1251

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    That is an interesting take. I suppose the Serum Powders may be good enough to replace the Shambling Shells, but I am not sure. The reason I would play Shambling Shell over Serum Powder is that Shambling Shell is a black and green creature, which is relevant for Unmask, Ichorid, Force of Vigor, and Nether Shadow. Also, if you run Shambling Shell, then you can run Phantasmagorian over Gigapede.

    Also, there are no Spies or Riders or Drakes, etc., to speed the dredging. You only have Street Wraith to give some acceleration. If you don't have any acceleration, I would cut the Flayer and add an extra Dread Return. Then I would probably just change the Dread Returns to something else, and go for the grindy game plan since you are most of the way there. Jamming down Narcomoebas, Nether Shadows, and Ichorids with Hogaak, Prized Amalgams, and zombies tagging along is not a bad plan. The Dread Returns right now will only bring back a beefy creature, and we now have Hogaak for that. I am not sure what I would put into that slot. Dryad Arbor, maybe, or Phantasmagorian?

    I am always open to brewing and new ideas, but I think the changes have made the deck weaker. Theory does not beat playtesting though, so please let us know how things go with the deck.

  12. #1252
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yes your feedback is good. The maindeck is less powerfull than a classic list but with a big choice for the SB.
    The reason is : We play between 50% and 66% of our parties with SB cards, thatís why I always think about a deck of 75 cards and not 60 + 15 less important. And bojuka is clearly a huge problem for me.

    I never think before about your idea removing dread return + flayer. Now we have effectively a solution with hoggak to play a big creature, and if I remove spy this mean also dread is less useful. Gigapede is less powerful than phantasmagorian , so I ll switch them and add dryad arbor in place of dread.

    Letís try and thanks for your advice /feedback !

    Horde Manaless :


    4 Ichorid
    4 Unmask
    4 Serum Powder
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Dryad Arbor
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Prized Amalgam

    SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
    SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
    SB: 4 Force of Vigor
    SB: 3 Lion's Eye Diamond

  13. #1253

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I like the idea of thinking in terms of the 75 and not 60 + 15, though I don't do it very well yet.

    One thing I realized when I talked about removing Dread Return is that we do lose the ability to sacrifice 3 creatures to make extra zombies, though that is not usually as important as having Cabal Therapy to sacrifice the first one or two creatures.

  14. #1254

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I am not sure about the need of unmask main.

    It slow down our loved DDD plan. Honestly i do not loose any G1. The problem comes out G2 or G3. There i come into unsmask and other stuff.

    I dont own hogaak yet so i played last week the FoW version.


    I dislike Leylines because they are pretty dead °, realy pretty dead, if there arent in the openeing. Mull is terrible for the deck.

  15. #1255
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Mulligan is possible to find the leyline with unmask and Lionís eye diamond :)

  16. #1256

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    GunofMercy's 5-0 League deck here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2019-07-13

    Creature (49)
    3 Chancellor of the Annex
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    1 Greater Mossdog
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Ichorid
    1 Lotleth Giant
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    3 Whirlpool Rider

    Sorcery (7)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Dread Return

    Enchantment (4)
    4 Bridge from Below

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Ashen Rider
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Force of Vigor
    4 Force of Will
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Sickening Shoal


    There are 17 dredgers, 2 Hogaaks, and both Forces. Also just 3x Nether Shadow and Dread Return. I think the Riders should have been Drakes though.

  17. #1257
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I do prefer local paper Magic, but this episode of the Eternal Glory podcast convinced me to play on MTGO too. I'm enjoying it.

    I'm still getting familiar with MTGO play, but I played a league this weekend and went 4-1. Figured I'd post a list and nano-report.

    2-0 against D&T
    1-2 against Academy Rector Nic Fit. In games 2 and 3 both of us started out with Leyline of the Void out lol. In game 2, I won through 2 Leyline of the Voids and 1 Ground Seal. One Force of Vigor took out the first Leyline of the Void and the Ground Seal, and my second Force of Vigor took out the second, hardcast Leyline. Force of Vigor is great.
    2-0 against U/W Stoneblade
    2-0 against BUG Delver
    2-1 against a Bant deck with Arcum's Astrolabe, Terminus, Snapcaster, Ice-Fang Coatl, Mirri's Guile, and Teferi, Time-Raveler. Really grindy games.

    // Creatures (48)
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Balustrade Spy
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Gigapede

    // Sorcery (8)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return

    // Enchantment (4)
    4 Bridge from Below

    // Sideboard
    SB: 4 Force of Vigor
    SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
    SB: 3 Serum Powder
    SB: 3 Sickening Shoal
    SB: 1 Gigapede

  18. #1258

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Scott, what matches did you bring in Serum Powder for, and how did it work out? How about the second Gigapede?

  19. #1259
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So I ran the CT-less list today. Definetely had some games where Chill not being Therapy cost me the game. For now I'm afraid I'm reverting to my CT safety blanket.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  20. #1260

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    CT does two/three big things for the list (sac a creature and clear the path for DR/slow our opponent down), and it doesn't matter whether we mill it or it is in our opening hand (since we can usually get it in the graveyard with Phantasmagorian). Creeping Chill increases our clock and keeps us from dying a little, but we can't have it in our opening hand (if we DR Rider/Drake, we usually have enough to win anyway, so putting it back in the deck won't matter). It is a nice card to have, but CT is the stronger spell. I do think that 1-2x Creeping Chill in the 75 is not a bad way to go to help with Dark Depths or Burn, but I don't think 4x is the way to go with the release of Hogaak and Force of Vigor.

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