Shoals & Pharaohs for sure. It's most important to counter any grave hate/Priest. The Pharaohs will slow down a lot of their ability to attack. Contagion is a good card, but I expect there to be a landed Thalia in this match-up. The Shoal will at least help fight her landing on the board, but after she lands, all of your spells are useless. Contagion is only good with her on the field so... it reasons it's effectively a dead card (minus a natch get on summoning sick Mom).Originally Posted by Snowfire
Also recommend finding a room for a shadow or two. Agree with shave an Amalgam, and possibly also a Gitaxian Probe. Blue count would still be at 17, higher than the requisite 16, and finding room for an extra free body.
Good luck, happy hunting.
I'm not making any ad hominem. But if you cannot beat this deck, you should consider that either your list or your plays are wrong (to beat this deck).
You speak about loading up on dudes, which are useless against combo, and then complain than you can't beat the fastest combo deck. Consider that it could be because you tried to have a very resilient deck. I personally feel that the deck is "too consistent", and that we should lower its consistency in order to be more reactive/disruptive, as ignoring what our opponent is doing is a problem vs faster decks.
Listwise, I would advise 4 FoW and 4 CotA MD and a mix of noxious, faeries and surgical SB plus shoals & pharaos. Just try, to see what it does vs RB rea. Drop MB trap, which does next to nothing vs rea and is less good than FoW vs storm.
Vs D&T, I bring in shoal (all their real threats cost two) and pharaos but no contagion, which are lackluster vs Thalia & mom, and remove some 3 probes, 1 amalgam, 1 CotA and 1 phantasmagorian.
I've used all variants of the deck posted and the Force of Will/Chancellor of the Annex list is just inconsistent in mulligans and vs hate, I'm sure it has a better game 1 vs B/r Reanimator but I know it has a worse match up because Faerie Macabre or whatever else makes no sense over Leyline of the Void in a deck that doesn't draw cards. Faster combo decks have strategy superiority, being worse vs the decks we are targeting in a metagame where said decks should be surpressing faster combo doesn't make a lot of sense to begin with. But in the event you do encounter B/r Reanimator, which should be further surpressing Storm, then emulating a worse aggro-control deck over just mulliganing for a silver bullet doesn't seem like the best strategy available. Surgical Extraction seems like the worst conceivable SB card possible for a deck with no Lands vs a deck with Chancellor, why would you ever play that over Faerie Macabre even?
I've stood on both sides of the match up, and this commanding win percentage you claim to have vs the deck is some where over the rainbow.
Hi, I have a question, Did you think Vengefull Pharaoh is a "must have" ?
No, but there isn't much else to do with the SB vs aggro.
Manaless Dredge took down the recent Legacy Challenge:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/547329#online
Kind of similar to a Japanese list we saw awhile ago - Spy in the main, Rider and countermagic to bring in from the side, plus the usual removal pacakage (no Pharaoh though). Also three Chancellors in the main.
I've been pondering why this was successful and have come to this:
I actually feel the metagame is really ripe for Manaless to shine - Eldrazi has fallen down in favour and hence our most popular Leyline of the Void deck is less of an issue, and BUG Deathritey decks have started to crop up a bit more which we've always been well-suited against thanks to Chancellor/Wraith/Phantas. The presence of BR Reanimator is still forcing people to gravitate to Faerie Macabre/Surgical though, which is graveyard hate that is very easy for us to beat (though Faerie being un-FoWable is kind of annoying at times).
I would not fault anyone for going full fearless at the moment. At least though, I feel that main deck Force of Will is not where you want to be currently with how the meta has shifted, as Show and Tell is the big combo deck of choice now and we can generally beat it quite easily (Show and Tell in Whirlpool Rider and go to town!). BR Reanimator is still relevant, of course, but countermagic has never been that stellar with their Chancellors and I'd agree that our matchup is a little weak against it (but not unwinnable with good play, of course).
Anyway, my list is looking like the following:
Disruption: (8)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy
Dredge/Discard: (18)
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
Acceleration: (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
'Free' Creatures: (19)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bridge from Below
3 Nether Shadow
Ressurrection: (7)
4 Dread Return
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Sideboard: (15)
4 Force of Will
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Contagion
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Unmask
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ashen Rider
I'm not sure about the board - I'm not that high on Unmask overall as I always just seem to get into awkward spots with it, and may want a third Faerie and third Shoal instead. I'd love to fit in a third Pharaoh but it's hard to justify with it being so mediocre in multiples.
Have an FNM Tournament report, went 4-0 today, 8-3 in matches 3-1 in game 1s
The list I used was
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Whirlpool Rider
3 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
2 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
Side Board
1 Unmask
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Force of Will
So yeah things went well for me today.
Round 1 2-0 vs Death and Taxes.
Game 1 he keeps a one lander with vial, gets thalia on turn 3, but I'm able to put enough creatures on board that I don't need to cast anything to win.
In: 2 Vengeful Pharoah, 4 Shoal, 2 Forces
Out: 1 Bridge, 1 Dread Return, 1 Git Probe, 1 Ichorid, 1 Prized Amalgalm, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Chancellor
Basically just cut a bunch of the more casting required cards that get taxed
Game 2 He mulls to 3 and has no mana
Round 2 2-1 vs Jund
Game 1 I'm pretty proud of. I keep a redraw heavy hand with nothing really going on and he slams turn one deathrite. I'm put into an awkward situation immediately as I draw gravetroll, but can't pitch it. 5 or so turns pass where he is also unable to play something due to needing to keep the mana up when I finally draw a street wraith, pitch gravetroll, cycle in response to being eaten and am able to go off at 5 or so life.
In: 2 Contagion, 2 Pharaoh
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
Bring in some removal cut some of the slower stuff
Game 2, Leyline on 7, ded instantly
Game 3, Opponent mulls to 5 with deathrite, 3 lands, and a pulse. I have the street wraith and phantasmagorian and he never gets anything going as he gets put down pretty quick
Round 3 2-1 vs Burn
Game 1, have the street wraith dredger combo with opening hand chancellor, and just get there on turn 3
In: 2 Pharaoh, 2 Contagion
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether shadow
Needed removal
Game 2, he gets me on turn 3 from 14 with double guide turn 2 and double bolt fireblast after I cycle a wraith
Game 3, Have chancellor again, he throws a rift bold under the bus for it for some reason. He gets a guide bolt, then follows with an eidolon. I build the board pretty slowly using zombie blockers to buy some time. I get put to 3 with his eidolon in play and only manage to have a single narcomoeba with no bridges. Fade the draw step, kill his eidolon with pharaoh after being put to 1 and narrowly was able to burn him out with Flayer of the Hatebound
Round 4 2-1 vs Junk Fit
Game 1 goes poorly. have to take a mull due to no dredger and no redraws. He lands a turn 2 scooze, and is then able to on turn 3 play an explorer and get 4 green sources locking me out.
In: 2 Pharaoh 2 Contagion
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
More of the same
Game 2 Opponent on a mull to 5, has turn 2 scooze. I pitch phantasmagorian. He attacks me I pitch a pharaoh which he has to eat leaving him with only one green source. I then become able to dredge using a street wraith to beat the scooze and go off turn 3
Game 3 Opponent mulls to 5 again. Opens on thoughtsieze taking something after I neglect to reveal chancellor in hand. Cabal Therapies next turn but has no other action. Eventually I get to discard and probe him seeing Rhino, Sigarda, and Decay. I just go off this turn and he draws into a deed, but flayer is in the yard getting me lethal.
Played against a ton of fair decks today, so the Pharaohs were super good. Definitely don't need the third. Shambling shells would have been nice, but I don't think they would have made or broken any of those games. Overall was super happy with how the deck performed as it just kind of got there sometimes.
I think with the increase of Surgical Extractions and Deathrite Shamans it makes the argument for Shambling Shell more relevant than before, it's important to either have the second Dredger in your hand or be able to top deck one quickly. If people are SBing in Faerie Macabre to circumvent Chancellor of the Annex vs B/r Reanimator then that is a god send for us, IMO.
Unmask should be good vs Show&Tell fwiw, and in general Storm has been slowing down so I don't think Force of Will is really that necessary in the MD if at all.
@ChemicalBurns, i think you're right about your feeling about the metagame.
For this japanese deck, I don't like the idea to get spy in the main deck cause i always win by reanimate a whirlpool, but maybe it's for bait the fact that you don"t play FOW (if everyone know manaless).
I may try to do some theoricraft to the shambling shell, because she really seem's to be useless (dredge 3, is that really a dredge ? :p)
Pharaoh is good on 2, but 3 assure us to have it fast.
I play unmask and I start thinking : why play unmask when you can play LED. I see unmask only as a discard card to discard us agasint duress or other enemy discard which could make us loose a turn and wait for turn 2 to use it to discard is late (shaman still on play, cage and RIP too). So you have to use it turn 1 and that make you loose 2 turns.
I think ashen rider is useless. In manaless, the first 7 card are the only card you will have. So if ashen rider it's against show and tell, to get him in hand is pretty poor. And if it's for reanimate him... why do it there is better card.
I like to have 1 progenitus in the side (for painter and miracle), but i think it's nop op and only something i like :)
My list is currently :
the 12 dredger, the 13 creature (narco + icho + prized + flayer), the 8 spell (cabal + dread return), the 8 draw (4 probe + 4 wraith), the 12 usefull (bridge + phantasmagorian + chancellor). This 53 cards are the one everyone use so I will only say the 53 and the other card.
The 53
3 Nether shadow
2 Whirlpool rider
2 Contagion
Side :
2 Vengefull Pharaoh
2 Faerie macabre
4 Force of will
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Lion eye's diamond
After some good use of excel :
In the case where you have shambling shell in hand and no other dredger (the probability is around 5%):
A choice is bad when you don't dredge other dredger 4,5 or 6.
Keep the shell is bad for 19% of the case.
Mulligan is bad in 24% of the case.
But this stat don't count the time win by chancellor or the use of prob and street wraith. Neither the enemy hate : shaman, surgical or faerie.
I agree on Shell - even though he's truly a mediocre Dredger, making sure that with Wraith or Phantas you hit/have that second Dredger to overwhelm the DRS becomes more and more important. I think that's finally how I've started to think about him - less part of the core, and more as a card used to overcome hate like DRS/Faerie etc. in a similar way to Phantas.
I'll agree that Unmask is better vs. Show and Tell (Force is the only thing we can do, other than Shoal pitch Amalgam, for blue versions), but it always has the one-turn delay since we can only use it on our second turn which is often too late. Compared to countermagic, where we can discard to hand size on our first turn, and then counter their threatening play (if need be) on their second turn. I won't doubt that Unmask is a good card tho, but I always find it awkward in certain situations because of it often leading to us time walking ourselves and our opponent then having time to draw out of the disruption or just be too slow when we let ourselves discard to hand size first. Or am I just using it wrong? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this FF, since I know you're quite the backer of Unmask's strength.
Great job! :)
Lots of fair DRS decks to gobble up there, also nice to see the win over Death & Taxes which I also had a similar experience to - just got locked out by Thalia, but kept the Zombie beats going. I actually cut all my Chancellors in the D&T matchup, due to most of the relevant plays being on turn two, though Vial can screw this up (but also just be generally too slow, as you can shred their hand before it ticks up to a relevant number). Be aware when you bring in Pharaoh you may want to trim some Bridges because of their dissynergy unless, like against D&T, you really need to grind without casting a spell. I'd also avoid trimming Ichorids in the D&T MU because having a self-sacrificing creature is really valuable there.
Congrats on the result!
Unfortunately now that I've won with the deck, I feel like I should switch of a bit due to some people being really committed to not losing to this again, mostly by packing leylines. I feel like I might try to throw people next week by switching to miracles, which is something I haven't played yet
Yep. Just bide your time.
Really enjoy follow this thread. Thanks for all the info. Took manaless to a 3rd place finish at a 40~ person 1k today. The event was at The Complex in Scarborough, ME 1/28/2017.
I was on this almost this list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/547329#online
Main
- 1 Shell
+1 Chancellor
Side
- 1 Progenitus
- 1 Ashen Rider
+ 2 Vengeful Pharoah
I was 5-1 in the swiss.
Round 1
Loss to 12 Post (1-2)
Crop Rotation / Bog is rough. I get game off a combo kill turn 3. Tabernacle also rough. Pleasure to see some Candelabras in action.
Round 2
Win against Death and Taxes (2-1)
Zombie swarm through Sanctum Prelate on 4 gets game 1. Containment Priest Thaila Jitte take game 2. I get 2 quick Amalgams game 3 and Pharaoh does some work preventing Thalia and Prelate from attacking.
Round 3
Win against Sneak and Show (2-0)
Chancellor slows him down both games. Game 1 he has Emrakul off Show and Tell, but I hit Narco for Spy kill on my turn. Game 2 he keeps a hand with surgical for my bridges, but can't find anything to Show and Tell in time.
Round 4
Win against Burn (2-1)
Super close matchup. Game 1 combo kill after buying myself time by hitting 2 Fireblast with a blind Therapy. Game 2 I get burned out off 3 Goblin Guide start. Game 3 I combo kill at 1 life with a Rift Bolt on suspend. Very little interaction from burn.
Round 5
Win against BUG Control (2-1)
Game 1 he has Deathrite, but seems unclear on some of the interactions. I have Phantasm + Street Wraith to deal with Deathrite and get the combo kill. Game 2 I have Thug + Street Wraith, but I whiff one the dredge 4 and he gets Deathrite down with Gofy for pressure. Game 3 I have Phantasmagorian to get around Deathrite, win with Ichorid. I had a strong feeling that his unfamiliarity with the matchup gave me some percentage points here.
Round 6
Win against BUG Control (2-1)
Game 1 Chancellor slows down Deathrite, I get too much power on board. Game 2 I fight through surgical on Grave-Troll only to scoop to Grafdigger's Cage. Game 3 He mulligans to 4 and finds a Surgical for Grave-Troll again, but I get Ichorid engine going.
Top 8 (1st seed)
Quarters I beat the same burn player in a similar match (2-1). Too bad he didn't get there because I lose in the Semis to Lands with Crop Rotation / Bog into quick 20/20s and burn probably would have loved that matchup. Ended up 3rd overall.
I ran the deck because there was lots of BUG delver/control going around and I think the matchup is favorable. I didn't board much at at all, but the sideboard is more for the unfair decks and Sneak and Show was the only one I played.
Thanks for reading my notes!
Congrats! Good call!
I have a couple of questions for your.
Which were the creatures that pharaoth ate most?
Did just 1 unmask worth?
Did you consider land version?
With the recent banning of Grave-Troll from Modern, this seemed like a great time to pick up Manaless Dredge on the cheap on MtGO. I've got all the pieces (except FoW; gonna try it out before pulling the trigger on those), but I have some questions.
1) I notice that the 5-0 lists on mtggoldfish.com all run Balustrade Spy with 2 Whirlpool Riders in the side, whereas most of the lists I see here run no spies and the 2 riders main. Am I correct in thinking that the less-all-in nature Whirlpool Rider has proved worthwhile? Not to mention being a 2CMC to pitch to Disrupting Shoal. Spy does seem more powerful on paper in game 1, however.... Are sideboard slots a consideration here too?
2) Running Progenitus (or other creature with the same shuffle-in replacement effect) obviously keeps you from milling out from over-dredging or a Dread Return'd spy, but it only works reliably for 1 turn. Phantasmagorian might also buy another turn or two with it, depending on how many cards are in your hand. Is that enough to make it worth it? How often does the deck fail to win after a full-mill?
3) Another difference I notice between Goldfish 5-0 lists and the ones here is Contagion vs Sickening Shoal. The argument that occasionally killing two X/1's is better is compelling, but are there any X/3's or X/4's we actually care about that Shoal could hit?
4) Without diving too far down the rabbit hole, what are the pros and cons of manaless vs traditional dredge in the current meta?
Traditional Dredge folds like a cheap tent to Chalice Aggro and is bothered more by Surgical Extraction. The only reason people play Whirlpool Rider is because of Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal, otherwise any black target is strictly better.
The main cons for manaless is that it loses more to hard graveyard hate and is a little bit slower. Also on modo there are players who will know you're on manaless and put you on the play first.
-rob
Hi Zifbox and welcome in the wonderfull world of manaless =)
To resume in a simple way : Spy list MD is better to go 4-0 but Wirlpool main is better to go 8-0. In small tournament, you don't really need a great sideboards cause you can expect your enemy to have bad hate in his side.
But Spy and no Force in MD (so with 2 rider and 4 FOW in side) hide the FOW to surprise your enemy in the game 2, but that eat a lot of slot in the side.
If you loose a game by over dredging or over draw with a rider... stop play manaless you're just bad with it^^ It's really hard to loose this way because you can count the card in your library at any time (and you're not playing with a River Kelpi list).
The deck never fail to win afer a full-mill or it's just you who fail.
Progenitus is side with Balustrad spy against a show and tell or a reanimator (for exemple your opponent play show and tell, he drops Emrakul, you drop Balustard spy, and all your library come into your graveyard so progenitus save you at you draw in your turn - I already did this in a tournament).
Moreover, Progenitus is good against Miracle to simply shuffle your library against the stack of creature in the bottom due to some Terminus.
Contagion is better than Shoal. I don't see reason why play Sickening Shoal exept that Contagion could be hard to find.
Pros :
- Manaless don't care about counter, the deck can win without play single spell and dredge is weak against counter (if your opponent have daze + FOW in hand you nearly have lost
- Manaless is more reliable in a 7-cards-hand
- Manaless is strong against low graveyard hate (surgical, deathrite shaman, Faerie macabre...) with Phantasmagorian, Chancellor of the Annexe and Street wraith and often can win even with a surgical or 2 and dredge is really weak against them.
- Manaless is cheaper
Cons:
- Manaless can't really muligan but don't really need it
- Manaless is week (expect with Force) against hard graveyard hate (Cage, RIP, Leyline) and the game is lost turn 1-2
- Manaless is easy to slow down (with thalia and some counter)
- Manaless is not like by everyone cause have few interaction
In a shorter way, Dredge is have few way to counter the classic play (shaman + counter + surgical in all side) when manaless have a great response to this, so in this metagame i find manaless really stronger than dredge and more reliable.
Dredge is useless if you loose game 1 agasint a T1 shaman or counter, your opponent don't have hate and you even loose. And moreover, dredge add some Force of will and Prized Amalgame in the list, they are good as cards but don't really fill in the list.
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