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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1281

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi all, yesterday i got 4th place with my manaless dredge. Nothing big: 10 bdies. However is my fisrt "good" performence in a tournament with this deck.
    The results:

    UW Stoneblade: 1-1 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant +4 vigor + 2 shoal
    4c wrenn and six atuff: 2-0 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant -1 ride +4 vigor + 2 shoal + 1 contagion
    Eldrazi stompy: 2-0 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant +4 vigor + 2 shoal
    Eleves BG: 0-2 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant +3 vigor + 2 shoal +1 contagion

    The list:

    4 gorian
    4 troll
    4 thug
    4 shell
    4 imp
    4 ichorid
    4 shadow
    4 amalgalm
    4 therapy
    4 dread return
    3 hogaak
    3 rider
    4 moebas
    4 bridge
    1 giapede
    4 wratih
    1 flayer
    1 giant

    SB:

    4 fow
    4 vigor
    2 shoal
    2 contagion
    3 macabre

    Hogaak didint shine but i liked how it played vs priest and how it absorbed counter magic.

    I always sideboarded with extraction in mind but as a acceptable cost. That is why i didnt came into fow. I preferred permanent hate stuff over fow which was unnecseary in my match ups.
    Last edited by GoldenCid; 08-10-2019 at 11:03 AM. Reason: More data for sharing

  2. #1282
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    After the 4-1 league from my last post, I did another league with the same list and got a 5-0.

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...cottofficial_-

    I faced a Murderers' Row that included Ark4n, Theo_Jung, and MatSole, and ended up going 2-0 in all five matches. My match-ups were Post Ramp, Ark4n on 4-color () W&6 Control, Goblins (Memories_of_the_Time on the Source, who also posted a 5-0 this week), Theo_Jung on 4-Color Delver, and MatSole on his Depths Hogaak list.

  3. #1283

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Figure I would offer my 2 cents. Been having fun testing this version with locals.

    4 Troll
    4 Imp
    2 Thug
    4 Shell
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Prized Amalgam
    3 Nether Shadow
    3 Hogaak
    3 Tishana, Voice of Thunder
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Bridge
    4 DR
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Creeping Chill

    SB
    4 FoW
    4 FoV
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Contagion

    Only 14 dredgers. Hasn't been too much of an issue. Thug was the cut even though it dredges for 4 due to shell being green for FoV.
    Tishana is a pretty reasonable DR target. Blue and Green to pitch to forces. Sometimes it dredges your whole deck, and sometimes it only dredges a few, but usually in the few times, it's enough.
    I'm still playing Creeping Chill. I still like it in certain matchups and when you don't have the ability to dredge your entire deck. I could see trimming 1 for another dredger or Gigapede though.
    Blue count is a little low so i agree with GoldenCid that Mindbreak Trap might be better than FoW. If that is the case, the dredge your deck DR target could change.

  4. #1284

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    With Hogaak, would Prime Speaker Zegana be a better UG DR target on average, from your playtesting?

  5. #1285
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Nope, b/c it's only situationally good
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  6. #1286
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I went to SCG Richmond and lost my possible win-and-in for Top 16 in the best possible way: Manaless mirror lol

    I ended up in a tie for 37th on breakers, and my final round Manaless opponent finished 18th. At some point I walked past two guys talking, neither of whom I played, and one guy says he lost to Manaless, and the other guy said he talked to someone else who also did and that, "Everyone is losing to Manaless today," so apparently people without lands were having good times. I finished just outside of prize money, but my opponents were really cool, and I definitely had good times myself.

  7. #1287

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    I went to SCG Richmond and lost my possible win-and-in for Top 16 in the best possible way: Manaless mirror lol

    I ended up in a tie for 37th on breakers, and my final round Manaless opponent finished 18th. At some point I walked past two guys talking, neither of whom I played, and one guy says he lost to Manaless, and the other guy said he talked to someone else who also did and that, "Everyone is losing to Manaless today," so apparently people without lands were having good times. I finished just outside of prize money, but my opponents were really cool, and I definitely had good times myself.
    Kudos on the good times and representation, bummer that it was so close, but not close enough. Without requesting a full report (unless you want), what did you play against, how did the deck more or less feel? Great to hear positive results.

  8. #1288
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Kudos on the good times and representation, bummer that it was so close, but not close enough. Without requesting a full report (unless you want), what did you play against, how did the deck more or less feel? Great to hear positive results.
    Thanks! The deck felt like it has game and I like my list; I don't have plans to make any changes to it.

    Round 1: Jarvis Yu on Dark Depths. 0-2 loss
    Round 2: Some kind of Delver: 2-0 win
    Round 3: Miracles. 2-0 win
    Round 4: Ross Merriam on Mono Red Stompy. 2-1 win
    Round 5: Some kind of Delver. 2-1 win
    Round 6: Mono Red Prison. 1-2 loss
    Round 7: Manaless Dredge. 0-2 loss

  9. #1289
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Thanks! The deck felt like it has game and I like my list; I don't have plans to make any changes to it.

    Round 1: Jarvis Yu on Dark Depths. 0-2 loss
    Round 2: Some kind of Delver: 2-0 win
    Round 3: Miracles. 2-0 win
    Round 4: Ross Merriam on Mono Red Stompy. 2-1 win
    Round 5: Some kind of Delver. 2-1 win
    Round 6: Mono Red Prison. 1-2 loss
    Round 7: Manaless Dredge. 0-2 loss
    Nice run. The Manaless mirror is a pretty rare sight. Also, is Mono-Red Stompy different from Mono-Red Prison? I'm guessing both matches involved Leyline vs. Force of Vigor?

  10. #1290
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    There seems no BG creature which draw multiple cards, while also could be pitched to FoV.

    When going FoV but not FoW SB plan, is it effective for replacing spy with Tishana, as keeping more green cards in deck?
    I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.

  11. #1291
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Nice run. The Manaless mirror is a pretty rare sight. Also, is Mono-Red Stompy different from Mono-Red Prison? I'm guessing both matches involved Leyline vs. Force of Vigor?
    Thank ya. It was actually the same Mono Red archetype in both rounds; I just wrote Stompy once and Prison once for some reason.

    I've played that match-up a lot lately, and it's pretty weird, swingy, and difficult to cover all bases. I'd say it's a little worse than 50/50, and my 2-3 record in recent matches bears it out on a small sample size. I bring out Therapy because of Chalice and bring out Phantasmagorian because of Karn into Crypt. I bring in Force of Vigor and Gigapede for LotV (and Serum Powder as they mulligan for LotV) and their artifacts like Bridge, and keep in the combo kill because of Bridge and their clock, but things can really pan out in different ways, because sometimes a Trinisphere will nerf your Force of Vigor and Dread Return (but not Hogaak). Or Rabblemaster kills you before you can rebuild after a Force.

    Regarding those two matches in particular, I actually didn't see a LotV in the first match (they did come into play in the second match, but I forget the details), and that's happened before. Sometimes all you see is a Trinisphere, Magus of the Moon, or whatever, and it's pretty easy, but it's not a very comfortable match-up. I'm just happy they can't recur Crypts like that other Karn/Moon deck, Painter. If they haven't put something on the board like a Rabblemaster clock or multiple hate pieces from Karn, the longer game is pretty good, with their pretty poor topdecks.

  12. #1292

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hello!

    I just made an account to post here, it feels like this is the most active manaless dredge community out there. I would like to write down my first tournament report.

    I recently got into legacy with manaless dredge, and I decided to make the deck on paper and bring it to my local shop, which runs a 20-30 legacy people event every week, I tried ScottOfficial and Anthony Voloshin versions in Modo, for paper I decided to go with Voloshin’s one just because it runs Chancellor of the Annex, I love that card. But I kinda miss a fourth Dread Return.

    List by Anthony Voloshin
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2116914#paper

    Round 1 vs Golgari Depths: 0-2

    In game 1 I kept a strange hand with just one Shambling Shell and 3 Street Wraths. Sadly, before I could try my luck, my opponent Thoughtseize’d me the first 2 turns and then got a marit lage into play before I could mill a narcomoeba or creeping chill, so dead in one hit.

    Game 2: I sideboarded the contagions to kill the elvish reclaimer but did not draw any. I got crop rot - bojuka after my first dredge. The game goes on for a few turns until I manage to get a couple of bridges and some creatures, the bridges are quickly destroyed before I could get any value out of them thanks to the interaction dryad arbor - elvish reclaimer. Next thing I see is a 20/20 hitting my face.

    Not too much to say here. Playing under pressure of an instant speed Bojuka Bog from game 1 is not where you want to be. I think one of the worst match-ups so losing 0-2 is fine.

    Round 2 vs Bitterblossom brew: 2-0

    My opponent was playing some kind of grixis brew with bitterblossoms/jitte main board that I had never seen before. All cards were foil which looked amazing.

    In game 1 the deck did what it was supposed to do and comboed turn 3, that felt good after losing 0-2 before.

    In game 2 there was no leyline of the void from our opponent. I have a hand with street wraith so I decided to play around surgical. Thankfully the opponent had it in his opening hand so when he used it in our upkeep we are able to fizzle it. From there it was good for us, a few turns left we get to a board state where the opponent is at 4 life (thanks to creeping chills) and has a bitterblossom in play. Game ended with my first win in a Legacy event.

    I actually did not sideboard anything because I wanted to see if he had leylines before sideboarding my FoV.

    Round 3 vs Miracles: 2-1
    Another really beautiful foiled out deck with unhinged lands.
    Game 1: Opponent had 2 swords to plowshares but not much else to fight back so we take game 1 with the spy combo.

    Game 2: I didn’t manage to mill any cabal therapy early so I got my early dread return countered and opponent managed to stabilize from there. I concede after I see he has in hand 2 swords, 2 snapcaster and 2 spell pierce.

    Game 3: Opponent doesn’t draw any of his sideboard hate and we take game 3 with a reanimated golgari grave troll with 12 counters and a Hogaak.

    Round 4 vs Urza Artifacts 0-2

    Game 1: Opponent has a Karn in turn 3 and goes go get a tormod's crypt, thankfully I didn't have a phantasmagorion in my opening hand, so the game was not completely lost. After popping the first crypt against a very lucky dredge (narcomoeba, amalgam, bridge and something else), he -2 karn again to find another tormods. He then says he is running 3 in total. That and a karn sctruct with power 11 did it.

    Game 2: I don't sideboard anything and play all in, my only chance is to combo off before he plays karn to get the tormods. He plays some boubles and draws a lot of cards, unlucky for him he never finds Karn and I kill him with spy combo.

    Game 3: He puts us on the play and has a tormods in the opening hand. Play around that for a while until he is 7 life, hoping for a lucky dredge when he gets a Aetherflux Reservoir and I concede.

    Not sure what to think about this match up, the only tools they have against manaless is the tormod’s crypt, but he could to them quite fast.

    Round 5 vs LED Dredge. 0-2

    Nice to see another dredge player. I have no leylines of the void (because budget), or faerie macabres so it's gonna be all or nothing again.

    Game 1: He doesnt have LED in hand so that gives me a couple of turns to find my combo. I get to a point where if I dredge a dread return I win (I had the spy and the 3 creatures) but no luck.

    Game 2: I put him on the play but he has the nut draw (LED, land and faithless looting) so he flips his deck really fast. I managed to kill his bridges on my turn but it was too late. GG

    So in the end I went 2-3 which was great for my first Legacy tournament. 2 of my opponents put me on the draw. That makes me think they are not very used to play against manaless which is good.

    The only issue that I see with the deck is that I feel like most of the time is not worth it to sideboard against graveyard hate. I could side in 4 Force of Vigor against Rest in peace or Leyline, since I cannot really mulligan:

    If we dont have FoV in our opening hand, he have 4 useless cards in the deck diluting our strategy
    If we have it in our own hand and we use it against layline, we are down 2 cards, so oponent gets 3 timewalks for free. Against RiP we get our Gy blown out anyways and also 2 cards less, so another 3 free timewalks for the opponent.

    It feels like is just better to play with the main deck and if they draw the nut hate, just concede and move on. What do people think about this?

  13. #1293
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @cebollinos You might want to join the Dredge discord
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  14. #1294

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I don’t think you’re wrong. I think you’re supposed to run dryad arbors main and 4 forces + 4 claim to have a running chance against leyline.
    I think manaless is better the more blue decks you have in the meta. Right now blue is at an all time low so you’re gonna face more leylines, rips, cages, crypt and bogs than ever.
    I would play the mighty card type ’land’ if i were to play dredge right now.

  15. #1295
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    @cebollinos You might want to join the Dredge discord
    Can you link that or DM me? I’d be very interested in joining.

  16. #1296

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    I don’t think you’re wrong. I think you’re supposed to run dryad arbors main and 4 forces + 4 claim to have a running chance against leyline.
    I think manaless is better the more blue decks you have in the meta. Right now blue is at an all time low so you’re gonna face more leylines, rips, cages, crypt and bogs than ever.
    I would play the mighty card type ’land’ if i were to play dredge right now.
    Leyline really isn't that popular in Legacy, honestly. This even after the mulligan change. Cage is another card that has kind of disappeared. Bog is honestly the card I'd be most concerned about, because it can't be stopped - unlike the other graveyard removal options. The only way to beat it is to play around it.

    That being said, I absolutely believe four Dryad Arbor is the right call in Dredge again. Especially to augment Force of Vigor out of the board.

    Also, you can play all-in if you want (as far as just not boarding in anti-hate measures). I personally don't like this strategy. I think you should grab game one a very large portion of the time, and game two becomes more of a test to see what your opponent is doing. Even "diluting" the deck doesn't matter too much, because the deck is still non-interactive with its threats.

  17. #1297
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Leyline really isn't that popular in Legacy, honestly. This even after the mulligan change. Cage is another card that has kind of disappeared. Bog is honestly the card I'd be most concerned about, because it can't be stopped - unlike the other graveyard removal options. The only way to beat it is to play around it.

    That being said, I absolutely believe four Dryad Arbor is the right call in Dredge again. Especially to augment Force of Vigor out of the board.

    Also, you can play all-in if you want (as far as just not boarding in anti-hate measures). I personally don't like this strategy. I think you should grab game one a very large portion of the time, and game two becomes more of a test to see what your opponent is doing. Even "diluting" the deck doesn't matter too much, because the deck is still non-interactive with its threats.
    it's not ideal, but leyline of sanctity can prevent bojuka bog.
    -rob

  18. #1298

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    If you scroll back to pages upon pages ago, I’ve been a huge advocate of Leyline of Sanctity in this deck. Of course, times change, too. I’m not sure if it’s worth it, but it does blank discard and Rotation-Bog, which isn’t good for Manaless.

  19. #1299
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    If you scroll back to pages upon pages ago, I’ve been a huge advocate of Leyline of Sanctity in this deck. Of course, times change, too. I’m not sure if it’s worth it, but it does blank discard and Rotation-Bog, which isn’t good for Manaless.
    I have played them off and on and they have pros and cons but they have won me games. Generally I try to dodge bog matchups and accept my losses when I don't. Leyline might be a good meta call if your local is heavy on bogs. Not sure I would play them in a big event and want a more diverse sideboard.

  20. #1300

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Leyline really isn't that popular in Legacy, honestly. This even after the mulligan change. Cage is another card that has kind of disappeared. Bog is honestly the card I'd be most concerned about, because it can't be stopped - unlike the other graveyard removal options. The only way to beat it is to play around it.

    That being said, I absolutely believe four Dryad Arbor is the right call in Dredge again. Especially to augment Force of Vigor out of the board.

    Also, you can play all-in if you want (as far as just not boarding in anti-hate measures). I personally don't like this strategy. I think you should grab game one a very large portion of the time, and game two becomes more of a test to see what your opponent is doing. Even "diluting" the deck doesn't matter too much, because the deck is still non-interactive with its threats.
    So playing arbors means not playing Spy. Are you on a blue version or...???

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