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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #201
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    There are a lot of grindy MU's in my meta (a while back I faced Esper Deathblade 3 rounds in a row, Batterskull + enough mana to bounce it is a bitch). During a lot of those matches, I struggle to get to the point where I can reliably cast DR. This b/c I often have too few creatures (and Bridges) to Cabal Therapy 2+ times in 1 turn (a little bit too often I had to strip away 2+ castable counters/StP etc. before being able to safely go off) AND DR that same turn. The key to solving this is being able to have a few more creatures in play without having to rely on your Bridges.

    After a couple of turns of barely getting by, you dredge (if necessary) and play the Dakmoor Salvage and boom, you have 2+ extra creatures to feed to Cabal Therapies. Or, when really living the dream, you may even have an untapped Salvage on the field. Cast Therapy, then flasback it.

    Heck, in the worst case it's a couple of extra bodies to join Ichorid on the beatdown.

    Anywho, b/c that's what I want to do I obviously can't run Balustrade Spy. This leaves us with the Whirlpool creatures, Kelpie and Griselbrand as most common DR targets/combo enablers. Griselbrand is a great DR target, but you won't always be able to pay 7 life to combo out. On the other hand, Griselbrand is a 3 turn clock, that's never bad. I just can't protect it for that long, not running counters and all. With Kelpie you really have to wait to play a land until after you DR it. This kinda undermines the problem I'm trying to fix. And since I'm not playing any counters, I don't need a 2 CMC creature to pitch to Shoal. So that leaves me with Whirlpool Drake as my DR target. Even if the first trigger nets me only 2 dredges, the second nets me another 2 for a total of 4 dredges (or roughly 20 or so cards in the GY). Or, with enough cards in my hand, I can play through a Stifle, making it easier to go off. It's also nice that the Whirlpool critters let you put Narcomoebas that are stuck in your hand back into your library.
    Last edited by Echelon; 07-23-2015 at 08:33 AM.

  2. #202

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
    As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

    My sideboard would look like:
    4 Ashen Rider
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Contagion
    3 Faerie Macabre

    Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
    I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.

  3. #203
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    For the Ashen Rider bit - Ashen Rider doesn't ensure you stop the Omni-tell player (depending on what they drop with S&T, most likely Omniscience). When they drop Omniscience, they can use all instant speed cantrips they want in response to the Rider trigger so even if it saves you that turn, you're pretty much dead the next.

    The SB looks ok. I don't like having DR targets in the SB for the Spy-list (DR'd Spy = win), but that's about it. If you feel you need 'em for your meta, more power to you.

    When running the Spy-list, I like to have a Progenitus in the main 60. Just so I can live the dream of dropping a Spy on the opponents' S&T, where they drop an Emrakul.

  4. #204

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
    As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

    My sideboard would look like:
    4 Ashen Rider
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Contagion
    3 Faerie Macabre

    Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
    I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.
    Last tourney I beat omni-show with a dread returned chancellor! They had one open mana after show/tell, I showed the second chancellor.......all spells cost two:-)

  5. #205

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmythegreek View Post
    Last tourney I beat omni-show with a dread returned chancellor! They had one open mana after show/tell, I showed the second chancellor.......all spells cost two:-)
    I would never thought of that (although it's parallel to Lands dropping (trini)sphere on S&T), that's just awesome :)
    @ Echelon: Ty for the advice, I probably swap out Ashen Rider for something else.
    Is Omnitell to be considered a favorable MU?

  6. #206

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
    As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

    My sideboard would look like:
    4 Ashen Rider
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Contagion
    3 Faerie Macabre

    Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
    I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.
    Yeah my experience is similar to others here. I didn't find Ashen Rider to be completely effective at stopping show, as they plan for it, given their deck has very few options for interaction at that point. It's the best option we have for that matchup, but I'd only include it if Show is common where you are.

    When I used to run spy, the matchups that had me disappointed more than any other were the taxing ones, ie Thalia, Guardian of Thraben-types.
    If you can't land Spy against these kind of decks, you're left to grinding it out against Batterskull etc., until they land a Cage/RiP.
    You won't win these matches unless you combo very quickly or get past the taxers, neither of which are easy or likely, given many of these decks run discard and/or creature exile to slow down your Dread Returns.
    Whilst I'm not running Spy right now, nor have I played Spy for about 6 months competitively, I'd be giving thought to Dakmor (in the side) and Chancellor (in the main) for sure.
    I'd be keeping Contagion & Macabre too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    Is Omnitell to be considered a favorable MU?
    With Chancellor in the 60, it can be. But no, not really, their deck is less of a glass cannon than ours and has a silver-bullet sideboard they can access from game1.
    But;
    They're significantly slower than us (when we're at our best), however Brainstorm and counter will make it easier for them to race you. The key here is Therapy together with Probe.
    Remember you don't have to name the card with Therapy, until after they choose to counter/brainstorm or not.
    With Therapy in game1, I often name Force or Cunning Wish early. After sideboarding, it will depend a bit on the game state.
    Bringing back Chancellor is good against this deck too as they need large amounts of mana to *go-off*.

    One thing to note;
    The Omnitell players don't seem to run redundancy where I play. Their whole deck hinges on Show and Tell. They could run a few Dream Halls, but choose not to, or at least I don't see them anyway. In this respect, Therapy can wreck them. I used to run Surgical Extraction in manaless (side) before I went blue, I just don't have room for it anymore.
    An option to consider....

  7. #207

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    That's some pretty good advice. I'll definitely try the Surgicals considering the synergy with cabal therapy. Might try Unmask as well should I like it.

    I also see your point regarding Thalia, and the consideration of Dakmor Salvage. That would probably mean swapping Spy for Dakmor postboard, and that feels like a hard bargain, especially since Dakmor can be wasted/ported. Perhaps a longshot, but would Chrome mox be worth the sideslots (it doesn't clash with spy, and can't be wasted/ported, but unfortunately doesn't dredge)?

  8. #208

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I've been messing around with this deck, because I fell in love with it at first sight. :)

    I was wondering if anyone has considered or tried Avaricious Dragon. The 4/4 flier is ok, but the draw 2 cards, discard your hand EOT, seems to be a great fit for this.


    Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

  9. #209

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    There are better options. Griselbrand,spy,whirlpool rider/drake/whatever allow you to win in the turn they get DR'd. Dragon forces you to pass the turn to get value out of it.

  10. #210
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So... I hit a new low this weekend. Managed to go 0-5 with the list I posted on the previous page. In the first round I made a couple of big errors that ended up costing me both games, had some issues with the deck not wanting to do its thing (dredge 20+ cards, still no creatures to recur) and some bad MU's. The rounds were as follows:

    Round 1, Goblins. 1-2
    In game 1 at some point I know his hand and name Goblin Warchief. Turns out it was a Chieftain. That cost me game 1. Game 2, the deck did what I wanted it to - ran over the poor guy like a truck. Game 3, Vengeful Pharaoh was doing a ton of work. At some point he attacked with a number of creatures including a big ass Piledriver and a Warren Instigator. During first strike damage, I forget that Pharaoh triggers (which would have killed Piledriver before it did any damage). He ended up Instigatoring a Matron and a Siege Gang Commander, saccing a token for exactsies.

    Round 2, UWx somethingBlade. 1-2
    Game 1, he doesn't stand a chance. I durdle a bit with the kill but get it in the end. Game 2 and 3, he finds an early Containment Priest and in 10 cards or so, I dredge 2 of my 3 Contagions into my graveyard. GG.

    Round 3, Elves! 0-2.
    Game 1 he steamrolls me on T3. G2 he start with land, Deathrite. I have the Contagion and Surgical Extraction, so I strip them out of his deck. Turned out it was the right move to do, as he had a Green Sun's Zenith he wanted to use to find a 2nd DRS. Unfortunately, this forced me into draw-go for a couple of turns so by turn 4 he steamrolled me again.

    Round 4, Miracles. 1-2.
    Game 1 went like a dream. G2, T2 RiP. G3, T1 Grafdigger's Cage. Turned out he had boarded in 2 RiP, 2 Cage and 2 Containment Priest. OMG!

    Round 5, Nic Fit.
    G1, T1, DRS. I drop a land, hardcast Cabal Therapy 2 times, stripping his hand of anything dangerous. I never find the Street Wraith/Phantasmagorian and scoop when at 10 life, facing 2 DRS and a Sigarda. G2 I get the engine going but have some bad luck with my dredges. Even though my Pharaoh is in the yard, it can't kill his Sigarda and soon a Scavenging Ooze eats everything important.

    I don't know what to think of this. Was this just a combination of big mistakes, bad luck and unfortunate MU's or am I just trying to do too much with this list..?

    At the end of the day, I do like having the Bloodghasts. Having to keep a hand with Dakmor Salvage as your only dredger sucks but happened in only 1 game over the course of the day. Besides, soon after I found a Troll. The Bloodghasts add some nice pressure to the board and explosive plays on the combo turn and were the biggest stars of the day, pretty much. Alongside Vengeful Pharaoh, that is. I currently run 3 of those in my SB and have no plans on shrinking that number.

    I'm curious to know what you guys think.

  11. #211

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivfader View Post
    ...would Chrome mox be worth the sideslots (it doesn't clash with spy, and can't be wasted/ported, but unfortunately doesn't dredge)?
    It's not such a crazy idea with Spy. I've not tested it personally, feel free to give a spin and let us know what you think.
    My initial thought would be to only consider it if *taxing* matchups are common for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Round 1, Goblins.
    At some point he attacked with a number of creatures including a big ass Piledriver and a Warren Instigator. During first strike damage, I forget that Pharaoh triggers (which would have killed Piledriver before it did any damage).

    (Vengeful Pharaoh) I currently run 3 of those in my SB and have no plans on shrinking that number.
    Bummer, sounds like a terrible night!
    I've used the same out to Piledriver in the past too.
    Given we should usually just stomp goblins and that matches like Miracles and Nic-Fit can be bloody difficult to win, I think you just had an unlucky one.

    Given the Bloodghast list relies less on Bridge than the regular list, I can see how Pharaoh could prove a worthy SB pick. I totally forgot about that guy.
    What matchups do you regularly bring it in for?

  12. #212

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Unless you are playing Dakmor Salvage from hand the opportunity cost of Dredging 2 as opposed to 4.5 on average isn't worth the extra body over just playing Dryad Arbor or the X robots. Even a more subtle card like Gigapede to increase your average Dredge or discard business probably gives you more consistency than having to play Dakmor Salvage at all. If you want to recur a land from the graveyard in order to activate Bloodghast, Dread Returning Dryad Arbor probably gives you better value.

    I think the card is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.

  13. #213
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Given the Bloodghast list relies less on Bridge than the regular list, I can see how Pharaoh could prove a worthy SB pick. I totally forgot about that guy.
    What matchups do you regularly bring it in for?
    Pretty much every, except for Miracles and Elves!

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Unless you are playing Dakmor Salvage from hand the opportunity cost of Dredging 2 as opposed to 4.5 on average isn't worth the extra body over just playing Dryad Arbor or the X robots. Even a more subtle card like Gigapede to increase your average Dredge or discard business probably gives you more consistency than having to play Dakmor Salvage at all. If you want to recur a land from the graveyard in order to activate Bloodghast, Dread Returning Dryad Arbor probably gives you better value.

    I think the card is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.
    Ghasts have been some of the best performers of the day. The main problem is that with grindy MU's you don't have the resources to safely DR, so how do you expect to DR a Dryad Arbor to then recur the Bloodghasts (or DR anything else)?

    Dredging Dakmor wasn't the issue, in the 13 games I played saturday I only had to dredge it once (and then dredged a Thug, so there's that). Also, by the time my board presence was big enough to want to dredge Dakmor, dredging 4 cards extra wouldn't have mattered. If I want to go off that turn, I can't use Ichorids/Nether Shadows I dredged into that turn anyway. Having the ability to dump 2/3 extra bodies on the board is quite big.

    The thing with the X-bots (and other stuff) is that they're only useful in your starting 7/8. After that, they're useless. Same goes with Chancellor (although a DR'd Chancellor can win games on its own). I don't like having dead cards in my deck, especially not in a deck like this. Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast are cards that let you prevent just that. Sure, you don't want to dredge Dakmor more often than you have to, but Dakmor is never a dead card. In your hand, it's awesome. In your yard, it allows you to dredge it so you can get some bodies when you need those. Same goes for Bloodghast. It can be fed to Ichorid, it can be a nice beatstick alongside other stuff, it can power your combo. Even mid-combo they can be useful if needed to be. Or the Bloodghasts can be used to push through some more damage with Flayer on the board. Flayer for 4 + Flayer for 5 + 4 Bloodghast x 2 power = 17 damage, allowing you to possible skip on 1 DR for the combo kill.

    I'm not sure yet, I definetely think I'm on to something. It just isn't for my meta, I fear. But I'll keep on testing.

  14. #214

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I honestly don't think Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast improve any of your match ups other than D&T and metagaming vs Deathrite Shaman is more important and costs less MD space, but whatever floats your boat I guess because 8 cards are really a matter of taste in any Manaless Dredge list.

    No creature card is ever really dead in Dredge as long as it runs Nether Shadow.

  15. #215
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I honestly don't think Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast improve any of your match ups other than D&T and metagaming vs Deathrite Shaman is more important and costs less MD space, but whatever floats your boat I guess because 8 cards are really a matter of taste in any Manaless Dredge list.
    I have kept at least 1 dakmor in the main just for the game 1 matchup against D&T with thalia, guardian of thraben or Mud with Lodestone Golem. They are both most likely bringing in gravehate g2, but I had a 1 card wiggle room and see both decks often in my meta.

    Here is my current 75:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell
    1 Dakmor Salvage

    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow

    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below

    4 Whirlpool Drake
    2 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Ashen Rider
    1 Progenitus

    SB: 3 Serum Powder
    SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 4 Force of Will
    SB: 4 Unmask

    Sideboard decisions: I have had shoal miss too many times. When my opponent mulligans down to 5 and then is pleased. I want the FoW obviously, but if I can't find it with a Serum then I'll gladly Unmask, take that grave hate and wait 2 turns to start dredging. Its my preferred backup method of not auto-losing to RiP and the like.

  16. #216

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Another horror- show at my lgs going 4-1 good for 2nd place.
    Living end 2-1
    Omni-show 2-0
    Bug control? 2-0
    Nic fit 2-1
    Snt 1-2

    Late. Ill try to post something relevant tomorrow. I love this deck.

  17. #217

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hello All!

    Here is my list that I've been running on Trice for several weeks now; it's a little different from what everyone is doing here:

    4 Serum Powders

    4 Bloodghast
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    2 Griselbrand
    4 Ichorid
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Bridge From Below

    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    4 Dakmor Depths
    4 Wasteland

    I like running Powders, as I was getting hands without any dredgers; I put in these in to act as my fifth dredger. Also, they allow me to actually mulligan more aggressively for particular setups. I like Bloodghast over Nether Shadow. I feel they pull their weight equally to Nethers if not more. I really like dredging into Ghasts and recurring them on the same turn. Both Ichorids and Nethers have to wait. A clock of 2 is much better than that of 1. So with Bloodghasts, I run Wastelands instead of Arbors. I like the addition, but many of you may not. Personally, they work great! They are like speedbumps that don't slow me down. Since my list isn't so dependent on Returning a fatty, I focus on my beatdowns with Batman and Robin. It's a really fun list, and well themed I might add. I've gotten a lot of compliments.

    I used to run Spy and fearless. Stuff like Unmask were in the list. But I trimmed it down to the above. I run a blue package in the sideboard; I am still fiddling around with the board. I always run 4 Voids; I hate losing to Reanimator. What would you all suggest to run against a Show and Tell deck, or something that abuses such? I am still waiting for MTG to print a black and blue gamebreaker creature that has power like Iona.

    I even looked at some old Vintage lists to see some ideas; I saw a Sutured Ghoul, which seemed interesting.

    Cheers!

  18. #218
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Golgari Grave-Troll often acts like a fine Sutured Ghoul without the need to exile parts of your graveyard . It just misses the trample.

  19. #219

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this. This deck runs plenty of re-occurring threats. Often times I'm looking for that last piece of the puzzle whether it be a dread return or my target and that extra card could very well be what I'm looking for. In a deck that makes tokens through bridge , narco's, ichorid and nether shadow all recurring threats it's very rare that I don't have the creature count to finish the job. This is a dread return deck before anything else. There's no reason not to play balustrade spy imho unless your on the blue variant in which case I would play rider. In the end your dread returns are one of your most valuable assets. When I dread return its for the win, not to get all grindy and cute with the opponent.

  20. #220

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I think (Dakmor Salvage) is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmythegreek View Post
    If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this.
    Dead on. Agree 100%.
    I see D&T quite a lot where I play, most times I go out I'll play against it actually. So I'll be taking along Ghasts again tonight to see how we test out again, despite the nagging thought I'm running a compromised (and not optimized) list.
    But I like to change things up and try different things for the sake of it.

    I'm one of the very few people who play Dredge where I play, and so far taxing decks have been quite successful against me. They're usually able to lock me out of playing Therapies and Returns. I don't feel like Dakmor actually solves the problem, as these sorts of decks also tend to run Wasteland.
    I'm thinking of taking along a modified sideboard with Vengeful Pharaoh and Leyline of the Void.
    Usually I run Faerie Macabre, but the synergy with Pharaoh, Bridges and Leyline is making me dribble a bit.

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