[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[zzap]

If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this. This deck runs plenty of re-occurring threats. Often times I'm looking for that last piece of the puzzle whether it be a dread return or my target and that extra card could very well be what I'm looking for. In a deck that makes tokens through bridge , narco's, ichorid and nether shadow all recurring threats it's very rare that I don't have the creature count to finish the job. This is a dread return deck before anything else. There's no reason not to play balustrade spy imho unless your on the blue variant in which case I would play rider. In the end your dread returns are one of your most valuable assets. When I dread return its for the win, not to get all grindy and cute with the opponent.

Dakmor is run because the pilot wants to run Bloodghasts not because he wants to dredge 2 instead of dredge 3. I don't understand your acute attention to this detail. Bloodghasts are better than Nethers, and that's why Dakmor is run. How is this a difficult concept? And how about this? Every dredge player knows how different games 2-3 are. Where's your sexy grindy time now? To me, hinging the deck on Returns is not a good idea. Play Reanimator; it has much better ways in bringing up your love handles from the grave.

But I guess I don't have much experience... sorries...

[Michael Keller]

Wait, how exactly are Bloodghasts "better" than Nether Shadow again?

[Rishadan]

Easier to trigger clause? I buy it.

[jimmythegreek]

Dakmor is run because the pilot wants to run Bloodghasts not because he wants to dredge 2 instead of dredge 3. I don't understand your acute attention to this detail. Bloodghasts are better than Nethers, and that's why Dakmor is run. How is this a difficult concept? And how about this? Every dredge player knows how different games 2-3 are. Where's your sexy grindy time now? To me, hinging the deck on Returns is not a good idea. Play Reanimator; it has much better ways in bringing up your love handles from the grave.

But I guess I don't have much experience... sorries...

I really don't know how to respond to this. Zzap is either a complete troll or a speculator of the arcetype who has little to no experience with manaless dredge. First off, I'm aware that people play dakmor for bloodghast. Second, I would really like to hear why blood ghast is better than nether shadow as well.Hhmmmm, is it because I get to dredge one less card to get a creature that most often can't attack the turn it came out? Blood ghast can't block, this tends to be a problem when your plan to grind out games with bridges on the swing back. Have fun dredging for two instead of six to get some limp body on the field. Now don't get me wrong I've grinded out my fair share of games with manaless but about 75% of my wins come from returning a spy. As far as games two and three go........sexy grindy time? Besides therapy, comboing out is your best opportunity to win the match, with almost every deck playing cantrips they will find their hate. I play manaless because it gives me two different avenues of attack where as reanimator is more linear. Most often I try to play the combo, if that fails then I have plenty of creatures to play the aggro role.

[Michael Keller]

Easier to trigger clause? I buy it.

Bloodghast is eons more conditional to trigger than Nether Shadow in Manaless Dredge.

[zzap]

I did say I was new.

I think both Nethers and Ghasts are conditional; I ran both, and I didn't see any major differences in grave-jumping. I do like the point of not being able to block, as I did run into times where I needed to block, but I had Ghasts for protection. But I would hardly call them limp bodies tho. Half the time they do not have haste, but that is offset by double the power. 2/1 is so much better than a 1/1, seriously. My last game against RUG Delver I had 3 Ghasts and 1 Dakmor Depths in the yard; I dredged 2, put a Weed and another Ghast in the bucket. I land-dropped for 4 2/1 wimpy bodies. 3 Batmans came along for the ride. My opponent couldn't handle it and tilted off the map.

I am no troll, but indirectly referring to my battleplans behind Manaless Dredge as Cute and Grindy picks at my nerves. I really love playing this deck; I know I play it differently, but I have a lot of fun. And I do feel that it is as competitive as the other builds here. I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

Happy testing!^^

[jimmythegreek]

I did say I was new.

I think both Nethers and Ghasts are conditional; I ran both, and I didn't see any major differences in grave-jumping. I do like the point of not being able to block, as I did run into times where I needed to block, but I had Ghasts for protection. But I would hardly call them limp bodies tho. Half the time they do not have haste, but that is offset by double the power. 2/1 is so much better than a 1/1, seriously. My last game against RUG Delver I had 3 Ghasts and 1 Dakmor Depths in the yard; I dredged 2, put a Weed and another Ghast in the bucket. I land-dropped for 4 2/1 wimpy bodies. 3 Batmans came along for the ride. My opponent couldn't handle it and tilted off the map.

I am no troll, but indirectly referring to my battleplans behind Manaless Dredge as Cute and Grindy picks at my nerves. I really love playing this deck; I know I play it differently, but I have a lot of fun. And I do feel that it is as competitive as the other builds here. I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

Happy testing!^^

Welcome to the thread! Generally speaking led dredge is a bit more grindy whereas manaless' gameplan allows for damage outside of combat most often through flayer of the hatebound. Prison effects along with stuff like ensnaring bridge make flayer an integral part of the deck. Without the speed of lands, draw spells and lions eye diamonds the combo element allows us to keep up with faster decks (especially with a deck that wants to go second.) Im all for testing different options with manaless. Extensive testing has gone into each and every card and certain cards have proven sub-optimal through real play testing. Creating the most optimal list is precedent.

[slave]

I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

A lot of the time you'll be forced to play the grindy style of game if your opponent is well versed with how your deck works. But, but because gravehate can be so very *final* in legacy for Manaless, you will want to combo out whenever possible.
(obviously you know this, but there... I said it)
In both the examples you've just listed above, Dread Return combo into Flayer of the Hatebound is the win condition you want.

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

[zzap]

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

I like playing against D&T. XD But I think my list would fare better against them. I also kinda like Miracles, but that is a much different outcome. I have to stagger waves of beatdown, so that Term is barely manageable. But I like the matchup, as they don't usually run cage. I'd rather try to catch a RiP or Priest with FoWs than that evil one drop. TES is, well, TES. We are at their whim whether they get their pieces or not. Cabal is the gameplan there, and knowing what to Cabal. I flattened TES last night where he tried to combo off first turn. In game one, he ritualed, and I Shoaled; he ritualed again same turn, and I FoWed. He left.

Btw What is up with Storm players? I don't know; it's like if they don't hit their combo they just leave. They really don't care who is across from them, do they? I am not trying to start anything here. Perhaps it is just the players I've run into that have been poor sports.

[jimmythegreek]

A lot of the time you'll be forced to play the grindy style of game if your opponent is well versed with how your deck works. But, but because gravehate can be so very *final* in legacy for Manaless, you will want to combo out whenever possible.
(obviously you know this, but there... I said it)
In both the examples you've just listed above, Dread Return combo into Flayer of the Hatebound is the win condition you want.

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

D&t is by no means an easy match-up. Thalia is a total bitch to deal with, mom needs to be answered, stoneforge can be trouble and they probably have some number of rip in their board. Contagion seems good as well as sickening shoal if you run it (but your on blue if I remember correctly). This is all predicated on the fact that they havnt landed a thalia yet. An early therapy game one could definetly benefit naming thalia. The equipments in this deck can pose a problem especially with an active mom. Swords to plowshare on reccuring threats (especially ichy) really hurts when your trying to be cute and grindy. Against combo and faster decks chancellor has been a fucking all-star. I really never like siding that card out as it often gives us the turn we need to hopefully hit some gas or a therapy. Snt (both omni and ru snt) is very prevalent in my area. Annex can be the difference between a turn one snt and the opponent having to tap their ancient tomb to cast lotus petal.

[slave]

Btw What is up with Storm players? I don't know; it's like if they don't hit their combo they just leave. They really don't care who is across from them, do they? I am not trying to start anything here. Perhaps it is just the players I've run into that have been poor sports.

I don't know about poor sports, the guys running storm I know (cough cough occasionally me) usually just scoop when they know they're beaten and/or out of gas.
I think everyone who's played against Manaless knows how oppressive it can get once the yard fills up, maybe that's something to do with it?

Thalia is a total bitch to deal with, mom needs to be answered, stoneforge can be trouble and they probably have some number of rip in their board. Contagion seems good as well as sickening shoal if you run it (but your on blue if I remember correctly). This is all predicated on the fact that they havnt landed a thalia yet. An early therapy game one could definetly benefit naming thalia. The equipments in this deck can pose a problem especially with an active mom. Swords to plowshare on reccuring threats (especially ichy) really hurts when your trying to be cute and grindy. Against combo and faster decks chancellor has been a fucking all-star. I really never like siding that card out as it often gives us the turn we need to hopefully hit some gas or a therapy. Snt (both omni and ru snt) is very prevalent in my area. Annex can be the difference between a turn one snt and the opponent having to tap their ancient tomb to cast lotus petal.

Yeah I always struggle against D&T.
In the games I played against D&T this week, I got taxed out in both games 0-2. Pretty hard to win once they have a Thalia & Batterskull.
I've been trying to see if Dakmor actually helped this, as taxing is pretty common where I am. Turns out after the last two evenings out with Dakmor/Ghast, that Dakmor hasn't really made much difference at all in this matchup. I only had Dakmor Wastelanded once the whole night if anyone is curious.
On the nights I play LED-Dredge, I've been packing 14 lands and 3 Lotus Petals, as I like to get off to a flyer (or get around taxers), but I don't really see the need for petals in manaless.

[jimmythegreek]

I don't know about poor sports, the guys running storm I know (cough cough occasionally me) usually just scoop when they know they're beaten and/or out of gas.
I think everyone who's played against Manaless knows how oppressive it can get once the yard fills up, maybe that's something to do with it?


Yeah I always struggle against D&T.
In the games I played against D&T this week, I got taxed out in both games 0-2. Pretty hard to win once they have a Thalia & Batterskull.
I've been trying to see if Dakmor actually helped this, as taxing is pretty common where I am. Turns out after the last two evenings out with Dakmor/Ghast, that Dakmor hasn't really made much difference at all in this matchup. I only had Dakmor Wastelanded once the whole night if anyone is curious.
On the nights I play LED-Dredge, I've been packing 14 lands and 3 Lotus Petals, as I like to get off to a flyer (or get around taxers), but I don't really see the need for petals in manaless.

Dakmor coming in tapped......is it even worth it l wonder ? Maybe run dryad arbor main?

[slave]

Dakmor coming in tapped......is it even worth it l wonder ? Maybe run dryad arbor main?

Yeah I have to wonder.
For me, Arbor opens up some explosive plays but I would suggest Dakmor has it's upside too.
Whilst Dakmor (would only be in the list if Ghast was there, for me) is conditional at best, neither of these options offer a way past Wasteland to allow you to combo out.
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox & Lotus Bloom are all options here, but...... meh.

To be honest, I embraced the Ghast/Dakmor idea as a way to try and beat D&T, but they just have so many answers to us. One of the guys I play against packs RiP/Helm combo in the 60, so I don't think adding Dakmor is really going to help that when they're packing sets of Thalia, Vryn Wingmare & Phantasmal Image.

I can't help but feel Chancellor is our only real option here, given it's ability to slow them down from landing Thalia, RiP or the dreaded discard on turn1.
Fingers crossed from there...

Your thoughts?

[jimmythegreek]

Yeah I have to wonder.
For me, Arbor opens up some explosive plays but I would suggest Dakmor has it's upside too.
Whilst Dakmor (would only be in the list if Ghast was there, for me) is conditional at best, neither of these options offer a way past Wasteland to allow you to combo out.
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox & Lotus Bloom are all options here, but...... meh.

To be honest, I embraced the Ghast/Dakmor idea as a way to try and beat D&T, but they just have so many answers to us. One of the guys I play against packs RiP/Helm combo in the 60, so I don't think adding Dakmor is really going to help that when they're packing sets of Thalia, Vryn Wingmare & Phantasmal Image.

I can't help but feel Chancellor is our only real option here, given it's ability to slow them down from landing Thalia, RiP or the dreaded discard on turn1.
Fingers crossed from there...

Your thoI'mughts?

In another sense I would lump d&t into the combo/gotta beet em' fast type decks. Cabal therapy naming rip/thalia is key here and besides an opening with chancellor its mostly just cross your fingers. Playing blue I would try to hold up counter spell for either those two spells. Playing black I would bring in contagion to take out mom, this allows us to go beat-down without worrying about a protected batterskull. Tough matchup no doubt.

[slave]

(Death & Taxes) In another sense I would lump d&t into the combo/gotta beet em' fast type decks. Cabal therapy naming rip/thalia is key here and besides an opening with chancellor its mostly just cross your fingers. Playing blue I would try to hold up counter spell for either those two spells. Playing black I would bring in contagion to take out mom, this allows us to go beat-down without worrying about a protected batterskull. Tough matchup no doubt.

Completely agree.
Anyone that packs maindeck gravehate = we have to be quick. This is one of the reasons I love Force in the main so much.

Speaking of which;
I rarely play against Lands, I suspect due to the scary expense of the deck, but in the times I have they've wiped the floor with me unless I managed to combo out on turn2 or 3.
No grind it out, they just nuked me with hate and went on to beat me (eventually).
How have you guys fared against this deck?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Completely agree.
Anyone that packs maindeck gravehate = we have to be quick. This is one of the reasons I love Force in the main so much.

Speaking of which;
I rarely play against Lands, I suspect due to the scary expense of the deck, but in the times I have they've wiped the floor with me unless I managed to combo out on turn2 or 3.
No grind it out, they just nuked me with hate and went on to beat me (eventually).
How have you guys fared against this deck?

Lands is a pretty rough matchup for Dredge and always has been. Tabernacle is pretty hard to beat, and Wastelock (for mana Dredge) is also a huge problem. Comboing out asap and/or having a Dread Return target that can negate Glacial Chasm and/or Tabernacle (i.e. Ashen Rider) are the only real plans I think.

[Michael Keller]

Lands is a pretty rough matchup for Dredge and always has been. Tabernacle is pretty hard to beat, and Wastelock (for mana Dredge) is also a huge problem. Comboing out asap and/or having a Dread Return target that can negate Glacial Chasm and/or Tabernacle (i.e. Ashen Rider) are the only real plans I think.

Am I the only one who seems to think Lands is easy?

Faerie Macabre is the catch-all in this match-up, and I've tested it for years. As long as you blow them out early with it, they're stuck on whatever they have in their hands to beat you with. And Tabernacle isn't doing anything against Ichorids and Shadows - both of which have haste and still allow for a combo kill. Of course by the time an opponent has all of those cards in play like Chasm and Tabernacle, Ashen Rider would be your best best to win - but the truth is the deck doesn't have the steam to keep up with Manaless - it can only try to slow it down.

Force and Shoal eradicate any doubt in the early-goings against Crop Rotation and Sphere of Resistance, and hopefully by then you can just win.

[zzap]

Hello All!

How do you all fair against Opps All Spells? I have terrible issues with this deck; I even run Void in board. I always lose game one, and win game two. But then they transform their deck to Belcher, so they win game three. Is this just a bad matchup for Dredge? Perhaps I have the worse luck of all time or something. I run a full blue package as well, but they run cabals. It just seems like a matchup I could easily handle on paper, but it never turns out well. Is it me? Or is it the deck? Lol

[slave]

How do you all fair against Opps All Spells?
....
It just seems like a matchup I could easily handle on paper, but it never turns out well. Is it me? Or is it the deck? Lol

Storm/Fast combo is always hard to stop with Manaless, even the blue version. It's not just you.

Oops is a deck I've played on occasion (not very well I should add).
Given it's cute combo which is VERY vulnerable to extraction and counter, it's not a strong deck, but it can be a cheap one.

A version of Oops I've previously played is with Laboratory Maniac, Spy & Angel of Glory's Rise, but I prefer the version with Underworld Cerberus, being less combo pieces and more resilient (slightly). I used to run 1 Bridge from below in my version in case they killed my Narc's (which is rare I should add)
I should add this deck very rarely wins on T1 or T2 IME, so you should have at least a couple turns to find a Therapy, provided they don't use their's to stop your end of turn discard.

It can be tricky to stop, but remember the deck runs few card draw options, and outside of tutors like Spoils of the Vault & Living Wish, they typically don't have too many ways of finding business when they need it.
If you can get off a therapy or two you should be able to win.
They need 3-4 mana to go off. Mana isn't the problem for Oops, even if they mull aggressively, but lack of draw can really slow them down.

If you're playing counter, countering their Summoner's Pact can not only stop their combo, next turn it can kill them right there.
If they give you the chance to cast Therapy, I wouldn't be worried about them putting down gravehate, I'd be targeting their combo.
In game 1, I'd target Spy/Informer.
In game 2/3, you're gonna have to guess/probe whether they're on the same plan, or on belcher and act accordingly.
One of the quirks of Oops, is that they don't need to run Phantasmagorian, they prefer to use Therapy on themselves for turfing combo pieces to the grave.
Because of this, it won't always be possible for them to target your hand.

Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction & Contagion are options, as Dread Return being sorcery-speed enables us to kill their Narc's or Macabre their Angel/Maniac/Azami/Cerberus or extract combo pieces.
Bear in mind though, some versions like the one I used to use, run Bridge from Below, so Contagions' effect could be very dependent on the list you're facing.

Does that help?

[DarkJester]

If you're playing counter, countering their Summoner's Pact can not only stop their combo, next turn it can kill them right there.

Wait, thats not true. A countered pact will not create the delayed triggered ability. Or am I misinformed?