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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #321

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk View Post
    You get an out to Thalia in your main which is a pretty big relief since she's trounced me more times than any piece of graveyard hate.
    LED isn't really an out to thalia since you aren't gonna cast it till your second turn, and since you are on the draw, thalia is already down and you can't afford to pay 1 so it is stranded....

  2. #322
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So... This just got spoiled:



    I propose the following list:
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam

    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Progenitus

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below

    15 dredgers, 16 creatures that ETB, Balustrade Spy to flip the library. Progenitus can always be turned into dredger #16.

    When triggered by Narcomoeba, the new guy comes to the party earlier than Ichorid/Nether Shadow (EOT instead of next upkeep), when triggered by Ichorid/Nether Shadow he arrives at the party kinda late (EOT after said next upkeep). Anyways, it's another creature to help us combo out. The more creatures, the easier it is to clear your opponents' hand w/ CT before comboing out.

    Edit: And another list to consider:
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Dakmoor Salvage

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Bloodghast

    3 River Kelpie
    3 Vengeful Pharaoh
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    3 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    3 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy


    No Bridges, instead 20 creatures that ETB. You either combo out or wear the opponent down hard with the continuous onslaught of recurring creatures. Another variant would be one that does have Bridges but forfeits the Dread Return-package in favor of something I still need to come up with. I feel like we do have quite some new design room with this latest addition.

    Edit: Mayhaps something like this:
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Dakmoor Salvage

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Bloodghast

    4 Vengeful Pharaoh

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Mishra's Bauble


    I call it Horde Mode.
    Last edited by Echelon; 03-23-2016 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #323

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    When triggered by Narcomoeba, the new guy comes to the party earlier than Ichorid/Nether Shadow (EOT instead of next upkeep), when triggered by Ichorid/Nether Shadow he arrives at the party kinda late (EOT after said next upkeep). Anyways, it's another creature to help us combo out. The more creatures, the easier it is to clear your opponents' hand w/ CT before comboing out.
    Not sure why it would matter if triggered by icky/shadow or narco or DR/ghast. I read the card as coming back regardless during your eot.

    This is a very cool card though, and something worth including. Makes most sense in the RiverGhast, as it's a bit slower in the Spy version. The card reads "more grind". Not sure what the point is to run a manaless version without any bridges or DR. Super aggro, but conceptually seems to lose it's resilience.

    Haven't played for a year+. How has manaless performed anecdotally?

  4. #324

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Prized amalgalm sounds good in paper...

  5. #325

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    So... This just got spoiled:

    Noice!
    I'd like to test out my old blue-manaless deck with Prized Amalgam.
    Here's my idea, or something like it;

    Manaless Blue
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    3 Nether Shadow
    3 Prized Amalgam

    4 Dread Return
    3 Whirlpool Rider
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Force of Will
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below


    17 blue total, meaning;
    16 (other) blue cards to satisfy a single Force in hand definitely puts it into *viable* territory....
    Gonna have to do some testing to work out how Shadow and Amalgam work together, and whether I can get the blue count as high as possible yet retain consistency.
    Ha!
    Didn't think I'd see any more *free* cards for this deck that work with the blue plan!

  6. #326
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Haven't played for a year+. How has manaless performed anecdotally?
    Same here for quite some time now. I still see too many people packing Grafdigger's Cage and other hate.

    The speed of the card doesn't really matter, by the way. All that counts is that you get extra bodies on the field, making it easier to protect and execute the combo. In the past I've struggled with games where I came just 1 or 2 creatures short of being able to and strip my opponent of his last counters and execute the combo in the same turn. I mentioned it mostly b/c when it recurs courtesy of Narcomoeba, it can attack the following turn. If you dredge into Ichorid/Nether Shadow instead (and recur those during your next upkeep), it'll take another turn before it recurs. Not that that makes it bad, I just felt it was worth mentioning.

    I dunno, I think the Manaless Bridgeless Dread Returnless version has some merrits too. It plays 16 Timewalks and 20 creatures that come back turn after turn to smash face. Most decks'll have a hard time when they need to deal with 4/5+ creatures/turn (and that number only increases as the game goes longer). It turns Daze, FoW and Wasteland into dead cards and makes any spotremoval just horrendous. Tempo decks are basically left with 12 creatures (that die after one strike, thanks to Vengeful Pharaoh) or so against your horde. Vs. Miracles you just bring back 4 creatures a turn or so, turning Terminus into a don't-care. Your game vs. ANT/TES/Elves! stays horrible though.

    Edit:

    I've goldfished Horde Mode a couple of times now - with the added Timewalks I average about 7/8 creatures on the field after 2 turns or so. I might be on to something here.

    Edit 2:

    The Bridge from Belowless 20 recurring creature River Kelpie build also runs quite smoothly. Mid combo you just dredge a Dakmoor Salvage to recur Bloodghasts for the last part of the combo. Takes a lot of time to work through all the triggers though (and there are a lot of them). It's hard not to miss any.

    I'm not going to explicitly test the 16 recurring creatures Balustrade Spy version, I'm sure that'll work just fine. It's the quickest way to execute the combo finish and offers Ichorid the biggest amount of food.
    Last edited by Echelon; 03-24-2016 at 05:42 AM.

  7. #327

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Some middle iteration of the actual deck list, while I'm testing in the teaching hospital between haemanalysises and drip bulbs (crucial sickness provides a lot of free time for the family'n'work busy man).

    14 Dredgers

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    1 Shambling Shell
    1 Dakmor Salvage (slightly improves taxing matchups - DnT, Eldrazi, MUD, often sided out)

    16 Beaters
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Prized Amalgam (the card is nuts, especially love to sacrifice them for the non-lethal Dread Return - they return the same turn)

    16 Enablers
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond (great, especially when we are not on the draw, allows to mulligan and have a plan beyond scooping)
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe (dislike them, possibly, should be exchanged for the Chancellors to make room for more blue goodies in the side, but someone should help Shoals to counter Cages, after all)

    14 Combo cards
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below
    2 Flayer of the Hatebound

    Sideboard
    4 Chancellor of the Annex (for cages and faster combos)
    4 Force of Will (for faster combos and any counterable hate)
    3 Disrupting Shoal (for Force of Will doubling)
    4 Unmask (for going first and literally everything)
    And a lot of prayers for the God of Gamers

    Against taxers I tend to side out almost all the combo cards (dread returns, therapies and creatures against Eldrazi, dread return package against DnT) and beat them with beaters, outnumbering them (better fast than slowly). Against Cages I leave Therapies, Dread Returns and Flayer in, shaving a couple of Dreadgers and enablers instead - Returns are for the sided Chancellors, that can finish the game on their own. Against leylines I scoop, I name this unfavorable matchup.

    Speaking of the art of sideboarding, I side out 2 weak dredgers and even 1 Thug in desperate matchups, where stopping the opponent is more important and we have time to draw into dreadgers that dredge good, I side out Probes when Shoals have no 1-mana targets, I side out 1 Phantasmagorian (only in desperate times also) and often side out combo parts (the sixteen beaters dredge can play the sole aggro mode), but attackers are the untouchables - never start the game with less than 16 - you need all of them to get things going.

    Next tests will be against faster combos and Miracles.
    I dismissed Pharaohs from the sideboard, because I like never wanted them to kill oponents creatures and often feed them to Ichorids as the most useless black creatures in the yard. And because I was too low on Force pitches.
    Last edited by Dziga Murnau; 03-29-2016 at 07:00 AM.

  8. #328
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'm not a fan of LED in this deck. Outside of your opening hand it's useless. Street Wraith in the GY at least equals Ichorid food and I prefer Gitaxian over LED. It's a Timewalk that shows you what to name with Therapy. However, your list did make me think of this:


    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Dakmoor Salvage

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Bloodghast

    2 River Kelpie
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    3 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    3 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below


    20 recurring creatures, combo finish & Bridges to boot. I'm guessing it'll work as a beatdown deck that threatens with the combo (since only 2 Kelpie & 3 Dread Return is a very light combo package. It's literally the bare minimum) like crazy. It should be throwing out so, so many creatures it overruns anything. It will be one of the slowest iterations of the deck though.

    By the way, with this many creature maybe one only has to run 3 Flayer of the Hatebound as damage will accumulate quickly enough without flipping the entire library.

  9. #329

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yes, you've caught my thoughts on the fly. I started to notice, that in too many post-side games I tend to side out combo creatures to have room for Chancellors - stop their first turn, get a 5|6 flying one-sided Sphere of Resistance after that. Second thing - too often I feel, that reanimating Kelpie, while being cute and fancy, looks more like a winmore - why not to reanimate Flayer immediately, sac it for 9 damage total and then deal 6-9 more with Amalgams, without passing a turn? Usually by that time opponent was already dealt some damage, so why bother and risk with Kelpie?
    Going Flayers as the only DR target lets shave the numbers once more (I never shaved that much in my life, as I do through this deck tuning) and return the full 4 Gitaxian Probes into the main. So I'll update my upper post.

    I tested Bloodghast-Salvage package and was never happy with it. They demand too much to work.

  10. #330
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau View Post
    I tested Bloodghast-Salvage package and was never happy with it. They demand too much to work.
    Consider them a combo piece of sorts. The turn you know you will DR Flayer you dredge a Dakmor Salvage and recur the Bloodghasts for some extra damage (or as the final creatures you need to DR Flayer). I mean, you know that the last card you dredge during your combo turn only brings Narcomoebas to the field to help you with the combo. If you already have multiple Bloodghasts in your GY recurring those might yield you a better result. And that's dismissing the cornercases where you already start with the Dakmor Salvage in your hand.

    Dredging just 2 sucks, but having those few extra bodies (and with that also triggers for your Prized Amalgams) can make quite a difference. I've been running a 16 creature build with Whirlpool Drake as DR target for some time now and it surprises me how quickly I hit the number of creatures needed to cast DR. Prized Amalgam gives you the potential to increase the number to 20, which is just nuts. Especially since we manage to keep in the Bridges. Remember that we come from a place where traditionally we only run 12 creatures that ETB instead of 16/20. That 33/67% increase makes this a completely different beast. I mean, just look at the Horde Mode build.

    By the way, for the Horde Mode build - maybe adding Gravecrawler over Pharaoh might be a thing. Dakmor Salvage gives the deck a little mana - might as well use it. In the worst case scenario you just feed your Gravecrawlers to your Ichorids. Might be too farfetched though.

  11. #331

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I have Lion's Eye Diamonds in the place of Pharaohs) But I dislike Horde Mode also - we run out of gas very quickly, and the speed is not that much higherthan in normal dread return approach.
    Yes, Lion's Eye Diamonds work only in the starting hand - they balance the numbers of cards that do absolutely nothing in the starting hand and demand to be discarded immediately to wrok. It's 5-8 Phantasmagorian, the most important and the only bottleneck card of the deck.

  12. #332
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau View Post
    I have Lion's Eye Diamonds in the place of Pharaohs) But I dislike Horde Mode also - we run out of gas very quickly, and the speed is not that much higherthan in normal dread return approach.
    Yes, Lion's Eye Diamonds work only in the starting hand - they balance the numbers of cards that do absolutely nothing in the starting hand and demand to be discarded immediately to wrok. It's 5-8 Phantasmagorian, the most important and the only bottleneck card of the deck.
    The point of Horde Mode isn't the speed of it but rather the robustness. Since you don't cast a single spell, you don't need to care about Wasteland/Daze/FoW/CotV/Trinisphere/Counterbalance etc. Horde Mode doesn't run out of gas as much as it keeps on snowballing. You start off with a couple of creatures and the longer the game goes, the bigger that number gets. There aren't many decks that'd be able to deal with 10+ creatures that keep coming back over several turns. You don't really need to care about spot removal, about sweepers, even about Terminus. It'll all come back the following turn anyway. The only (immense) downside is that you have no game vs. combo decks and no way to answer hate. You can smash face with it and that's it.

    Also, I'm not saying it should actually be a thing. It's more of a case study. A different take on deckbuilding - play Magic without making mana or casting spells.

  13. #333

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Well, I also added Cabal Therapies to the Horde Mode - can't play without that card)

    By now I'm finally happy with the main deck of the normal Manaless Dredge and will consider it my own stock list. Constant 2-3 turn kills both going and drawing first. Just reanimated two Trolls 8/8 and 7/7 and a Phantasmagorian on my third turn in the face of Grixis (with only Delver on the board) after three probed Therapies (and followed with 3 Ichorids, that got the party started, next upkeep). This deck goes insane sometimes.

    Now we'll shave the side beard, iykwim.

  14. #334
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau View Post
    Well, I also added Cabal Therapies to the Horde Mode - can't play without that card)
    Why? It's too slow vs. hate/storm combo and there isn't much else you care about.

  15. #335

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Why? It's too slow vs. hate/storm combo and there isn't much else you care about.
    I tried Horde Mode without Therapies and now like it more. You're right, it has quite different approach to the dredge idea. It's simple and occasionally very fast (though have the most dead cards in the grave). It's a pity, we can't fit even more free creatures in form of Dryad Arbors. Btw, sideboard and sideboarding here is not that hard - the deck consist of redundancy and redundancy, that's good for finding the side outs (just side out one of each card, lol).

  16. #336
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau View Post
    I tried Horde Mode without Therapies and now like it more. You're right, it has quite different approach to the dredge idea. It's simple and occasionally very fast (though have the most dead cards in the grave). It's a pity, we can't fit even more free creatures in form of Dryad Arbors. Btw, sideboard and sideboarding here is not that hard - the deck consist of redundancy and redundancy, that's good for finding the side outs (just side out one of each card, lol).
    Yeah, that's what made me think about Gravecrawler (since you end up with a little mana anyways). I'm not sure if it's better than having the extra timewalks. If it is, you could just switch out the Baubles for a set of Gravecrawlers and a set of Nether Traitors.

    It'll cost you some more speed, but that's a lot of creatures.

  17. #337

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What's the Horde More build?

    Looking at recent posted decklist, I'm not seeing any with no castable spells.

  18. #338

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau View Post
    I tried Horde Mode without Therapies and now like it more.
    I wouldn't consider it myself.
    Therapy is not only the best card in the deck, but it's about the only way we have of slowing down fast combo/storm or disrupting a control player.
    I've been a dredge player for some time now, and we're just not fast enough to go fearless without therapy. And also remember that Therapy works in tandem with Phantasmagorian to discard to your own yard, which is crucial for fast starts on occasion.

    I played around with the Horde idea.
    Thoughts;
    1. It's utterly reliant on your opponent not being able to deal with creature attacks.
    Many decks don't fear creature attacks at all, as they are faster than us, or have ways of negating us like Ensnaring bridge, Elephant grass, Terminus etc etc.

    2. In order to get the damage through, we need to grow our yard fast. Slow dredging against soft hate may have problems with this plan.
    Because we're not running mana, we're too slow for this to be a genuine threat.
    And we're especially slow when the opponent has ways of nerfing our yard like DRS, extraction etc., which are both common as muck.

    3. It's not actually faster than the combo version. At least in the combo version we have a way around point #1 (flayer).

    So anyway, after goldfishing a bit I was left with the final thought that *the Horde* idea would be a fun for multiplayer.

  19. #339
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    What's the Horde More build?

    Looking at recent posted decklist, I'm not seeing any with no castable spells.
    To quote myself:

    It's basically just dredgers, recurring creatures and Timewalks, the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    I wouldn't consider it myself.
    Therapy is not only the best card in the deck, but it's about the only way we have of slowing down fast combo/storm or disrupting a control player.
    I've been a dredge player for some time now, and we're just not fast enough to go fearless without therapy. And also remember that Therapy works in tandem with Phantasmagorian to discard to your own yard, which is crucial for fast starts on occasion.

    I played around with the Horde idea.
    Thoughts;
    1. It's utterly reliant on your opponent not being able to deal with creature attacks.
    Many decks don't fear creature attacks at all, as they are faster than us, or have ways of negating us like Ensnaring bridge, Elephant grass, Terminus etc etc.

    2. In order to get the damage through, we need to grow our yard fast. Slow dredging against soft hate may have problems with this plan.
    Because we're not running mana, we're too slow for this to be a genuine threat.
    And we're especially slow when the opponent has ways of nerfing our yard like DRS, extraction etc., which are both common as muck.

    3. It's not actually faster than the combo version. At least in the combo version we have a way around point #1 (flayer).

    So anyway, after goldfishing a bit I was left with the final thought that *the Horde* idea would be a fun for multiplayer.
    CT to discard your own cards means you've dredged at least once and hit at least one creature that could ETB. How is that crucial for a quick start? It's something that happens after you've started. Keeping the dredger you returned to your hand and discarding it EOT is just as fast.

    To comment on the rest of your points - the point of the build wasn't speed but robustness, I've said this before. Especially G1 there aren't all that many cards you care about. If this build should ever be used with a specific prey in mind that prey'd probably be anyDelver, Miracles, MUD and Eldrazi. And, as I've said before as well, I don't necessarily recommend this build over any build with a combo finish - the ability to win on the spot (and/or mess with what your opponent is doing) is just too strong to pass up. The major downside of this build is that you're basically dead vs. anyHate or anyCombo. This is also something I said before.

    Again, I came up with this mostly as a deckbuilding excercise, and I found it quite entertaining. Especially G1 you'd be able to take quite some people by surprise. The problem is that you also have to go through G2 and G3.

  20. #340

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Come on, Slave, Horde mode is just a sketch idead right now. Yes, it's not faster and stronger than combo version, it's just a new take on the dredge idea. It's just a start. Corner hate like grass and bridges can be solved with the proper sideboard, where Therapies can find their place.

    Echelon, through testing added 2 Salvage Titans to the main deck. Their ability to return to the hand for the almost no price (in desperate time one Titan can eat another) lets do some good things in the team with two Phantasmagorians: dredge Troll every turn even if you have only one in the yard (with Gorian in hand dredge Troll, return Titan, discard them to another Gorian), charge the Shadows that have less than 3 creatures above (that was the starting point for Titan adding), so they can attack and die safely every turn, be the 8th card to discard (corner case, the first two are pretty popular).

    Quite fun, I'll say (but at the next Russian Legacy championship I'll stick to my stock list with possible changes in the side).

    Yet again, beloved dredgers, what things in Legacy do we fear the most beyond ultimate hate like Cage/RIP/Leyline?
    (toying with Stain the Mind right now - looks a bit slow against 1-2 mfnf hate).

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