[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[vieko]

I'd switch a Shambling Shell and/or a Gigapede for 2 Vengeful Pharaoh. They do some much needed discouraging to your opponent whenever he thinks of attacking.

The list is stable as it is so I don't really know if you'd want to switch 4 Timewalks for other cards, but it absolutely does not hurt to try!

It's awesome to see other people messing around with Horde Mode. It might not be better than the combo lists, but it's fun as hell.

I think you are right, swapped to 3 Pharaohs, 3 Gigapedes and 3 Gravecrawlers... it's super stable and fun to play! Here's the current list with the two sideboards I'm experimenting with:

27 RECUR
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
3 Gravecrawler

19 DREDGE
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
3 Shambling Shell

7 UTILITY
4 Street Wraith
3 Vengeful Pharaoh

7 TO GRAVE
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gigapede

COUNTER COMBO SB
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
3 Whirlpool Rider
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

ANTI-HATE SB
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Sickening Shoal

[GoldenCid]

I think that you u card caount is too low to run fow. Did you test it in a real tournament?

[vieko]

I think that you u card caount is too low to run fow. Did you test it in a real tournament?

I think you might be right there... would probably make more sense to run the Blue SB like so – bringing the blue count to 23:

COUNTER SB
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Whirlpool Rider

Also: I've tried the sideboard below in a MTGO League (3-2), tweaked it to this after:

ANTI-HATE
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Sickening Shoal
1 Reverent Silence

Reverted the Pharaoh count back up to 4 (just to good to not have) – 3 Shamblings, 3 Gravecrawlers and 2 Gigapedes. Will likely try the deck this coming week on paper... not sure which board but will post an update :)

[Echelon]

@vieko: Awesome!

Nice touch to add that SB combo package.

[civet five]

I think that you u card caount is too low to run fow. Did you test it in a real tournament?

Prized Amalgam and Narcomoeba are also blue for the blue count

[GoldenCid]

Prized Amalgam and Narcomoeba are also blue for the blue count

Off course they count...but if you have no aditional u cards seems weak.

Anyway this hypothesis need to be tested in a real field, NOW!

[slave]

Off course they count...but if you have no aditional u cards seems weak.
Anyway this hypothesis need to be tested in a real field, NOW!

I ran the blue-force manaless list exclusively for around 6 months. You may be able to find info on my findings early in this thread or in the old manaless thread.
This was before amalgam was printed obviously.

I was running Force in the main for a total of 16
The amount of times I had a Force in hand but couldn't actually use it was significant, however the *threat* of Force did seem to make some opponents' play more cautiously once they knew you were playing it, especially if you managed to fire off a Probe to see their hand.
Postboard, siding in Disrupting Shoal, Mindbreak Trap helped to get Force into *viable* territory, but Shoal is often impotent to hate, Trap is only useful against certain opponents, and siding in all 8 just to satisfy force, when a card like Trap won't actually be useful, isn't ideal.
Manaless is never going to get out of *glass-cannon* territory against terminal hate, riding the blue.
All IMHO of course.

4x Amalgam in the list IMO will significantly improve the Blue counter plan, but think about how high your blue would be in the majority of matchups, postboard. If it's below 16, I would argue the blue plan is actually diluting your deck, rather than improving it against hate.
As for the Horde plan, I'm not sure running blue for Force is a great plan, but I've been wrong before!

Hypothetically, if I was going to run the Horde plan and the green anti-hate side;
is useful.
Given you're already running Dakmor Salvage, I would consider siding in Riftstone Portal.
We have redundancy in Natural State.
Claims are often blocked by CHalice of the Void @ 1, Ray of Revelation &/or Ancient Grudge in small numbers maybe?
Unmask would be high on my list too.

[Echelon]

OMG we're taking Horde Mode seriously? That is awesome! I didn't think that far ahead when I started that particular list, lol.

I'm glad people are having fun with it.

[vieko]

OMG we're taking Horde Mode seriously? That is awesome! I didn't think that far ahead when I started that particular list, lol.

I'm glad people are having fun with it.

I've had fun with it today... few 3-2 in leagues... it's a fun list. Latest interation:

24 RECUR
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid

18 DREDGE
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
2 Shambling Shell

14 UTILITY
4 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Faerie Macabre

4 TO GRAVE
4 Phantasmagorian

SIDEBOARD
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
3 Whirlpool Rider
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

As much as I liked the Gigapede tricks, I think having Faerie (or another useful black creature) makes more sense. The combo sideboard can be explosive, does fall flat to counters but has won games. Not crazy about Gitaxian Probe main anymore... feels like I'm accommodating for a sideboard I never want to board for :) Anyways, fun times... has potential, will take for a spin on paper.

[Echelon]

You, my good sir, just made my day.

Good call on cutting Gravecrawler. In the games I've played I recurred exactly 1. All the others got fed to Ichorid. Ashen Ghoul is surprisingly good. @slave: Thank you again for bringing that one up!

@vieko: What were your MUs in the league/can you give us a small report?

[easysantiago]

You, my good sir, just made my day.

I second this. It's great to see novel builds of this archetype.

[mistercakes]

been having a lot of fun with the manaless list. can't seem to go better than 4-1 though in leagues. so depressing. was 4-0 today and lost 3rd game to miracles.

anyway

that list was:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
3 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ichorid
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return
2 Ashen Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

sb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity

that league was

2-0 g/b eldrazi ramp with crop rotations
2-0 miracles
2-0 bug delver
2-1 miracles
1-2 miracles

am trying out a new list with some bridges and therapies, but only cutting back minimally on some of the horder and the 2 ashen riders.

additionally, found out there is a modo bug with phantasmagorian. you are unable to determine the order you place your guys in there, so best of luck to nether shadow players.

-rob

[vieko]

Prized Amalgam + Flayer of the Hatebound

I'm just gonna leave this here and let it speak for itself in regards to the power of the Amalgam when combined with Flayer!



:)

[Echelon]

@mistercakes: Cool list! Who needs Bridges? Lol.

@vieko: What list are you running now?

@both: Write some reports on your leagues! Daddy needs his fix, dammit!

I love this deck so much. It seems Amalgam gives us so much room to fuck around!

[mistercakes]

4-1 in another league. will type up a report in the next few days

[vieko]

4-1 in another league. will type up a report in the next few days

@echelon Holding off until I hit 5-0 with either list. Been alternating between Horde and Combo and collaborating with @mistercakes almost daily :) Current lists (both with several 4-1 finishes):

MANALESS HORDE 1.7 BLUE

22 RECUR
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
2 Ashen Ghoul

15 DREDGE
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage

8 PEAK / CYCLE
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

11 UTILITY
4 Chancellor of the Dross
4 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Faerie Macabre

5 GRAVY
4 Phantasmagorian
1 Dread Return

SIDEBOARD
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Soul Spike
1 Contagion

PROS

• Great against Miracles... nothing beats the feeling of watching "the joyless bunch" Terminus and Terminus and flashback Terminus and take a beating to our endless recursive army.
• Chancellor of the Dross: starting at 23 vs 17 is great, sometimes 26 vs 14... Dread Returning a 6/6 Flying Lifelinker ends games. Also: feeds Ichorid and enables Shadows / Ghouls
• you literally cast TWO spell in the list pre-board (and that's if you choose to)... we give ZERO fucks about permission.
• Soul Spike: this card is fantastic! I blame @mistercakes for suggesting it and applaud him :) OMG Burn hates it, other decks don't see it coming (Storm I'm looking at you) and Double Dross + Spike in opening hand = 10 Damage in their Upkeep leaving us at 30 to start the game... it's happened.

CONS

• Folds to Leyline – oh well :)

===========================================

MANALESS COMBO 1.7 BLUE

16 RECUR
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

14 DREDGE
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

11 UTILITY
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
3 Faerie Macabre

8 PEEK / DISRUPT
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy

8 GRAVY
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Dread Return

4 TARGET
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

SIDEBOARD
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Soul Spike
1 Contagion
1 Serra Avatar

HIGHLIGHTS

• Faster than Horde
• I beat Reanimator with an active Elesh on board with this list – Flayer and Amalgam... yup.

CONS

• Folds to Leyline – oh well :)

[Echelon]

Some crazy cards in there. I'm loving it! You guys are a bunch of heroes! Seems like you're doing a lot of great work. Thank you for making my day (again).

[mistercakes]

Latest league:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
2 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Nether Shadow
2 Ashen Ghoul
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ichorid
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bridge From Below
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

sb
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity

that league was

2-0 esper stoneblade (maybe deathblade)
2-1 miracles
1-2 UR delver
2-0 belcher
2-1 tribal zoo

highlight of this was last round he had won game 2 with a turn 1 grafdigger's cage.

game 3 i chose to be on the play.

had opening hand of:

thug, narcomoeba, stinkweed, led, therapy, street wraith, X (can't recall)

play LED -> cycle street wraith, crack LED for BBB. dredge with thug. hit prized amalgam and grave troll. cast thug. flash back therapy (putting narco on top of deck) strip him of his grafdigger's cage.

going to try same list but cutting sb slots of leyline for 2 undiscovered paradise and 2 nature's claim.

-rob

[Echelon]

@mistercakes: How does Griselbrand sound as DR target? It can win the game on its own and makes it a lot easier to pull off the combo finish. Amazing to see how much stuff you packed in that list, by the way. You could possibly skip the Bridges for another 2 Bloodghast/Ashen Ghoul. 22 recurring creatures + DR finish, sheesh. Or just add another Therapy and another Flayer. Seeing how many creatures come back turn after turn you don't really need a combo finish. Just grind people out.

[mistercakes]

the version listed above isn't a combo deck, that's mostly why there is only 3 dread return.

Griselbrand is probably unnecessary. I like iona because there's many games where reanimating flayer doesn't kill (it may a bit more with cabal therapy in the deck + hitting amalgams but I'm not dependent on getting two dread return)

the therapies were added for some resiliency against combo and random stuff.

the bridges are in there to secure the deck a bit more Vs miracles. I've still lost a few game ones to some good disruption (meaning 2-3 terminus + stp followed by an early monastery mentor)

making tokens from ichorid should secure that a bit more.

beat eldrazi last night. 2-1.

game 1 on the end of my opponent's 2nd turn I had in play

2 narcomoeba 2 amalgam thanks to phantasmagorian and street wraith.

on my turn I got a nether shadow followed by 2 more narcomoeba and an ichorid...and a bridge.

i finished the turn dread return on iona and a grave-troll (9/9).

he had a karakas but it didn't matter.

game 2 he had 2 leyline on his opening 7 so I die.

game 3 he mulled to 5 to get a leyline, but I had the undiscovered paradise and a nature's claim. his hand wasn't that strong from there and dredge got there.

also worth noting on magic online undiscovered paradise, phantasmagorian are bugged.

you can't choose graveyard order with phantasmagorian and undiscovered will only return back to hand if you've used the mana. (that being said it appears that wizards will reset your match if you lose due to the bug)

also i had a weird interaction for regular dredge (with lotus petals).

if you click on narcomoeba in hand to cast it and all you have in play is a lotus petal, don't use it to cast narcomoeba...there's no takebacks....and you can't cancel the spell. game locks. they did reimburse me. (logic would dictate that i should lose the lotus petal, but be able to cancel the spell. not the case on modo).

to return to earlier points:

the earlier versions of this deck had 4 bloodghast 4 ashen ghoul. it was good at times, but i think the current build is a bit stronger. will keep posting as i play more.

-rob