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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #421
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    I had been running a blue RiverGhast list, so having Salvages over Shambling Shell wasn't a stretch. Add in the Prized Amalgams, and it was -1 Therapy, -1 DR, -2 Bridges, and swap two Ghast for Ashen Ghouls. Other change... +2 Vengeful Pharaohs, +1 Iona, -3 River Kelpie. Easy peasy, and thanks to the Amalgams for the added beef. Super impressed with that card.
    i wonder if it's better for the sb to keep it with river kelpie.

    maybe try keeping the kelpies over the 2 pharaoh and iona. dunno. but i haven't tested yet. 3 kelpie + 4 amalgam + 4 probe + 4 narcomoeba is starting to be a very reasonable amount of blue cards.
    -rob

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i wonder if it's better for the sb to keep it with river kelpie.

    maybe try keeping the kelpies over the 2 pharaoh and iona. dunno. but i haven't tested yet. 3 kelpie + 4 amalgam + 4 probe + 4 narcomoeba is starting to be a very reasonable amount of blue cards.
    That's a loooooooot of triggers to keep track of. It's one of the biggest reasons why I stopped playing Kelpie - it's friggin' exhausting (and this was before Prized Amalgam existed).

  3. #423

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i wonder if it's better for the sb to keep it with river kelpie.

    maybe try keeping the kelpies over the 2 pharaoh and iona. dunno. but i haven't tested yet. 3 kelpie + 4 amalgam + 4 probe + 4 narcomoeba is starting to be a very reasonable amount of blue cards.
    M'eh. Counterspells are awkward, I'd rather keep the LED + Looting SB, and splitting them leaves 4 FoWs, and either 3 MB Traps or D. Shoals. I'm not in love with the lands and N. Claims, but that makes more sense than a half idea of counterspells.

    The pharaoh's do work. It seems a lot of decks win through combat damage. Pharaoh is seldom dead. And Iona can just end a game. Kelpie is good, but the triggers are problematic, because they have to be taken, but it's not "automatic" enough to land and get there 100%, unlike Spy or Grizz.

  4. #424

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i wonder if it's better for the sb to keep it with river kelpie.

    maybe try keeping the kelpies over the 2 pharaoh and iona. dunno. but i haven't tested yet. 3 kelpie + 4 amalgam + 4 probe + 4 narcomoeba is starting to be a very reasonable amount of blue cards.
    I would run Whirpool Riders instead of Kelpies. They will get you a similar result, keep that blue count high and work great with Shoals (Scooze, RiP, Teeg, Thalia, etc).

  5. #425

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by vieko View Post
    I would run Whirpool Riders instead of Kelpies. They will get you a similar result, keep that blue count high and work great with Shoals (Scooze, RiP, Teeg, Thalia, etc).
    Ditto. Kelpies weren't as explosive, but offered a lot more long term bang, and a body that was useful. But for flipping, and on the counterspell plan, Whirlpool Riders make more sense, especially with Shoals.

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Or, if you don't have Shoals in your SB - Whirlpool Drake. Triggers twice instead of just once. Also provides some extra value when facing Stifle.

    I'm probably attending a monthly at the LGS for the first time in months this saturday and I just can't decide if I want to take Nic Fit or Manaless for a spin. Both have new toys that I want take for a fieldrun and shine in various MUs. If I'm taking Manaless, it'll probably be the Balustrade Spy with Prized Amalgams list. I like threatening with the combo finish and Spy is the most efficient way to do just that.

  7. #427

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Or, if you don't have Shoals in your SB - Whirlpool Drake. Triggers twice instead of just once. Also provides some extra value when facing Stifle.

    I'm probably attending a monthly at the LGS for the first time in months this saturday and I just can't decide if I want to take Nic Fit or Manaless for a spin. Both have new toys that I want take for a fieldrun and shine in various MUs. If I'm taking Manaless, it'll probably be the Balustrade Spy with Prized Amalgams list. I like threatening with the combo finish and Spy is the most efficient way to do just that.
    Happy Hunting either way. Manaless seems to be in a good spot. The GY hate seems to be at a serious low. If a player isn't on Miracles or D&T, I doubt they're packing anything worthwhile that can't be played around, or raced. I agree on the assessment of Spy for combo though. Horde Mode seems to be best at grinding, and Spy for combo.

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Happy Hunting either way. Manaless seems to be in a good spot. The GY hate seems to be at a serious low. If a player isn't on Miracles or D&T, I doubt they're packing anything worthwhile that can't be played around, or raced. I agree on the assessment of Spy for combo though. Horde Mode seems to be best at grinding, and Spy for combo.
    It isn't that other versions combo off slower or anything, but it just takes so much time to execute. Kelpie is just a giant clusterfuck of triggers (especially now we have Prized Amalgam) and I've been in a position where I had to DR 2 Whirlpool Drakes to complete the combo. Working through all those dredges and triggers took near forever (or at least long enough to rightfully annoy/bore my opponent to death) to do. Going DR Spy?, Spy trigger?, flip library, Progenitus replacement effect & Narcomoeba triggers? and iterate over the Prized Amalgam triggers is just so much quicker.

  9. #429

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    It isn't that other versions combo off slower or anything, but it just takes so much time to execute. Kelpie is just a giant clusterfuck of triggers (especially now we have Prized Amalgam) and I've been in a position where I had to DR 2 Whirlpool Drakes to complete the combo. Working through all those dredges and triggers took near forever (or at least long enough to rightfully annoy/bore my opponent to death) to do. Going DR Spy?, Spy trigger?, flip library, Progenitus replacement effect & Narcomoeba triggers? and iterate over the Prized Amalgam triggers is just so much quicker.
    I think we agree? It's not like Spy can't grind, and they're not different decks. But one obviously looks to combo win like whoa, and the other can combo win. Potato, Potato.

  10. #430
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yeah, we agree

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I do disagree.
    To my opinion spy is far less good than the other targets.

    If you run counterspells, of course there is no questions that spy is bad (at least way worse than the blue ones, especially rider), but I think that spy is less good without too:
    - Vial and thalia make spy lose the game right now, while the others make it an immediate win (fringe but exists).
    - Same argument with surgical extraction, a card which sees a lot of play against us.
    - SDT/Terminus. Also relevant in G1.
    - Most of you agree with the aforementioned as they run a progenitus in the 75, aka one of the worst possible cards in the deck: you often dredge half your deck, losing 1 or 2 cards in grave with no upside is relevant. Not to speak about the wasted slot.
    - the durdling factor is for the manaless player: G1 is usually ours, winning 1-0 is a thing. If an opponent does not concede, you an not to kill him if you know he does not have really relevant things to do. If G2 or 3 starts while there is only 5-10 min it is good, we win in few turns, not all the decks do that. Decks in the draw bracket are good too.

    I really wonder what kind of advantage the spy can have?

  12. #432
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I do disagree.
    To my opinion spy is far less good than the other targets.

    If you run counterspells, of course there is no questions that spy is bad (at least way worse than the blue ones, especially rider), but I think that spy is less good without too:
    - Vial and thalia make spy lose the game right now, while the others make it an immediate win (fringe but exists).
    - Same argument with surgical extraction, a card which sees a lot of play against us.
    - SDT/Terminus. Also relevant in G1.
    - Most of you agree with the aforementioned as they run a progenitus in the 75, aka one of the worst possible cards in the deck: you often dredge half your deck, losing 1 or 2 cards in grave with no upside is relevant. Not to speak about the wasted slot.
    - the durdling factor is for the manaless player: G1 is usually ours, winning 1-0 is a thing. If an opponent does not concede, you an not to kill him if you know he does not have really relevant things to do. If G2 or 3 starts while there is only 5-10 min it is good, we win in few turns, not all the decks do that. Decks in the draw bracket are good too.

    I really wonder what kind of advantage the spy can have?
    Vial & Thalia (or any other way of messing with the rest of the combo) -> Solved by Progenitus. Flip your library, the following turn attack for up to 34 (12 from Amalgams, 12 from Ichorids, 4 from Nether Shadows, 4 from Narcomoebas, 2 from Spy). Seems legit. Discard Progenitus a couple of times more to continue the onslaught (and perhaps build some extra zombie tokens in the process). Progenitus just means you can spend all 4 of your DRs on just Balustrade Spy while still being able to close the game. Progenitus isn't a bad card, it's an extra win-con. Even SDT/Terminus is nothing more than a speedbump. They'll need Terminus for 2/3 turns straight before you're in any danger.

    Concerning the durdling - I happen to like playing Magic. If I want to sit there not playing the game, I should just not show up.

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Vial & Thalia (or any other way of messing with the rest of the combo) -> Solved by Progenitus.
    Well, it's what I said: Spy has such strong drawbacks that it forces you to play progenitus, a terrible card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Progenitus isn't a bad card, it's an extra win-con.
    You'll have to explain what a win condition is. You can neither cast or reanimate it, neither use it as icho fodder. it's sole point at being in the deck is not to die because spy mills your whole library instead of a chosen number of cards, I cannot see how this fit in any definition of "win condition".

    Proge is one of the worst possible cards, being a blank both in hand and in grave (even slightly worse than that).

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Well, it's what I said: Spy has such strong drawbacks that it forces you to play progenitus, a terrible card.

    You'll have to explain what a win condition is. You can neither cast or reanimate it, neither use it as icho fodder. it's sole point at being in the deck is not to die because spy mills your whole library instead of a chosen number of cards, I cannot see how this fit in any definition of "win condition".

    Proge is one of the worst possible cards, being a blank both in hand and in grave (even slightly worse than that).
    It allows you to (hypothetically) run Spy as only combo piece. You win by just smashing face, which you can do b/c Progenitus allows you to live for a couple more turns.

    You might find that a bad thing, for me it mostly just tickles my funny bone.

  15. #435

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    It allows you to (hypothetically) run Spy as only combo piece. You win by just smashing face, which you can do b/c Progenitus allows you to live for a couple more turns. You might find that a bad thing, for me it mostly just tickles my funny bone.
    I don't think you NEED to run Progenitus alongside Balustrade Spy but I like it for the following reasons:
    • As Echelon points out, it gives you an extra turn (and a standing army) if things go belly up
    • Counts towards blue for games where you bring in Forces
    • Painter Servant is just funny
    • I could say something about S&T but I haven't had this happen to me yet


    I went 5-0 last night with the list below beating Shardless, Nahiri Miracles, Miracles (Lossett), Eldrazi and Miracles along the way:

    MANALESS COMBO 2.1 GRIS

    16 RECUR
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid

    15 DREDGE
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    10 UTILITY
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Street Wraith
    2 Faerie Macabre

    8 PEEK / DISRUPT
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy

    8 GRAVY
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Dread Return

    4 TARGET
    1 Griselbrand
    1 Balustrade Spy
    1 Whirlpool Rider
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    SIDEBOARD
    4 Force of Will
    2 Disrupting Shoal
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Progenitus
    3 Nature's Claim
    3 Elvish Spirit Guide

    My favourite build so far, I've been collaborating with @mistercakes for the past little while on several iterations of Dredge and think we are making some SOLID progress :) Few notes on the list above:
    • 2-3 Faeries mainboard give you a fighting chance vs. Reanimator, will mess your fellow dredge players... can be sided out without messing the rest of the deck.
    • All targets in mainboard will win you the game, on the spot or the next turn: Rider is a controlled Spy, Gris is a lifelinking Rider, Flayer is awesome and now that Amalgam is a thing, he's even better.
    • Force / Shoal are the best answer to hate IMO. You just need to play TONS of post-board games to get a feeling of how many and when to bring them in.
    • Mulligans are OK... don't be afraid to give them a turn, they need all the help they can get.
    • Claims + Guides are for Leylines... that's it. Guide enables Neather Shadow and can be used on the spot (Dryad needs a turn and messes with the Spy plan).

  16. #436

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    It's been a long time since I've posted. It looks like I will be able to attend GP Columbus and I can't think of anything else I'd rather play. Time to dig out manaless again.

    Prized Amalgam is so good! I've been on the blue build for a while so it's just a perfect fit.

    My list is very similar to vieko and mistercakes from the post above. Good to see great we're on the same page.

    16 RECUR
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid

    15 DREDGE
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    10 UTILITY
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Street Wraith
    2 Force of Will

    8 PEEK / DISRUPT
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy

    8 GRAVY
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Dread Return

    4 TARGET
    3 Whirlpool Rider
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    SIDEBOARD
    2 Force of Will
    3 Disrupting Shoal
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Contagion/Sickening Shoal (unsure of what the split should be if any)
    2 Vengeful Pharaoh

    Main differences are:
    -all the deck dump targets be Whirlpool riders for the increased number of Shoal in the SB
    -2 maindeck FoW as a hedge against other fast combo decks. I do like the thought of main deck Faerie Macabre and will have to try those
    -Dead to Leyline. No way of removing it. It doesn't see that much play. You cant have the answers to everything. Just hope to dodge it.
    -Contagion and Pharaoh as ways of removing DRS and Containment.

    My concerns are over-boarding for certain match ups. There are times when I want to bring in Shoals, FoW, and the creature removal but I know that can't be correct.

    Any feedback is appreciated!

  17. #437
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    haven't tried maindeck Force of will. seems like a good idea. will test.
    -rob

  18. #438
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by vieko View Post
    I went 5-0 last night with the list below beating Shardless, Nahiri Miracles, Miracles (Lossett), Eldrazi and Miracles along the way:
    You can't just go 5-0 and not post a report, mister!

  19. #439
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So... I had a wonderful run today. Took my own Spy-list out for a spin. Went 3-0-2 into top 8 at my LGS's Monthly.

    Round 1, vs. Eldrazi (2-0)
    Game 1 goes quite long. Didn't hit any Bridges or DRs until the bottom 20 cards of my library. My recurring army held his at bay while a couple of Narcomoebas were pecking away at his life total until I could combo out. First I CT to take away his Warping Wail, then go for the DR. G2 he T2 Faerie Macabres away my dredger. Fortunately I have another, kickstart the engine and combo out 2 turns later. Somewhere before that he kills one of my Bridges by Dismembering (or whatever it was) his own Endless One. Cool!

    Round 2, vs. UR Delver (2-1)
    Game 1 I just overwhelm him with beats. He falls quickly. G2 he Surgicals my first discard, which happened to be my only dredger. I don't draw another and die shortly after. G3 he mulligans to 6 or 5 while I have a great hand with Troll, Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe. It does get kinda close so I choose to strip his hand and leave blockers for his lone attacker rather than also cycle my Street Wraith and trying to combo out that turn. Seeing as all he has in hand are 2 FoWs and he was no way to kill me, I play it safe and the following turn beat him to death.

    Round 3, vs. Eldrazi (2-1)
    It was this guys first Legacy tournament. He'd never played against Manaless, so in both G1 and G3 he played CotV on X = 0. That's fine by me. G1 I overwhelm him with creatures since a Thorn of Amethyst had shut down the combo route. G2 he starts with a T1 Relic of Progenitus and I can only discard 1 card/turn. I die quickly. G3 he taps out on T3 and I go for the combo (and succeed). Afterwards it turns out he boarded out his Thorns b/c he thought I wouldn't cast any spells. We talked a bit about how the deck worked so he won't be surprised the next time he faces it (or something similar).

    Rounds 4 & 5 - ID

    I play some casual rounds with my R5 opponent. He's on Sneak & Show. We end up 3-2 in my favor (started out 0-2, then turned it around to 3-2). This MU is intense. Either he combos off, or you do. On the final game he manages to land a Grafdigger's Cage. Luckily I still have 2 zombie tokens and they get me there.

    Top 8 - Quarter Finals. Mono U Dream Halls S&T (1-2)
    This was interesting. G1 he goes for S&T. I drop BALUSTRADE SPY, flip my library, do my triggers, have Progenitus as library and I just see him looking like "What the fuck is happening..?". Unfortunately he can complete his combo, so I die to a lot of released ants. G2 I get there before he does. Combo finish FTW. G3 I have an incredibly quick opener (Troll, Street Wraith & 2 Probes) but he goes off on his T3, just before I can. So close!

    I had a lot of fun.

    One nice trick I came across during the day: In a couple of games I had several Prized Amalgams in my hand. When I did my dredge for the turn I hit a Narcomoeba and a Phantasmagorian. With the Narcomoeba trigger on the stack, I discarded the Prized Amalgams to Phantasmagorian so they'd see the Narcomoeba enter the battlefield. This speeded up quite a few games.

    My thoughts in general: I loved my list. Didn't board in even a single card the entire day. Speed kills too, especially vs. Eldrazi. For reference - my list was just dredgers, combo and gas. No stuff like MD Faerie Macabres or anything (I'm not saying that they're a bad choice, I'm just saying that I like to keep my deck as streamlined as possible). The Prized Amalgams do give this list an incredible boost. It's quicker and hits a lot harder. They also make it a lot easier to go for the combo. You just have so many creatures to sacrifice to multiple CTs before you go for DR, it's nuts. And b/c of that the Progenitus in my main 60 is needed more than ever. I was so happy that thing was in my deck. It just allows you to go all out and beat the everloving shit out of whatever you face. I wouldn't play this deck without it.
    Last edited by Echelon; 06-05-2016 at 01:10 AM.

  20. #440

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Echelon, can you share your list?

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