Yeah, I know. Variance is a part of the game. I wasn't planning on changing a thing to the list MD. It felt really good and I will play it again. Maybe a few changes to the SB, but nothing really great.
Hello everyone! After a long time not playing Manaless I've now jumped back on the train with Prized Amalgam's printing (I've been playing way too much D&T recently, and need to do some broken things). Had a lot of fun at my recent weekly Legacy going 3-1, and looking for a bit of help sideboarding, which I feel I'm struggling with.
The list:
Creatures: (41)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Whirlpool Rider
2 Shambling Shell
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Non-Creature Spells: (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
Sideboard: (15)
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Unmask
M1 vs. 4c Loam
G1: My opponent had double Bob but only drew lands (a lot of Wastelands, hehe), though got some Staged Maze of Ith going. I eventually comboed out and killed him though. Notably, I screwed up and reanimated Whirlpool Rider with no Dredgers in yard, but luckily had a second DR to get Flayer > Therapy saccing Flayer into return a bunch of Amalgams for the kill. This tended to be how I killed a lot during the day, actually.
+4 Contagion
+3 Faerie Macabre
-4 Force of Will
-3 Nether Shadow
I tend to cut Shadow a lot... Is this correct? He tends to be the weakest of out of our guys when creature combat is involved, which is pretty central to these fair-ish matchups. Force seemed unnecessary since he either has Leyline (can't do much bout that) or hatebears like Containment Priest (which Contagion cleans up).
G2: Turn zero Leyline, not much to see here.
G3: He mulls deeply for Leyline but doesn't get there, though has a Thalia in hand. Luckily I go pretty bananas before he finds his white source and give him the Zombie beats.
M2 vs. Merfolk
G1: Just do my thing, combo out through his durdly TNN draw by Therapying Force and moving from there.
-4 Nether Shadow
-1 Dread Return
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+1 Unmask
I expect Cage and Relic, maybe, so I board in Shoals. I also fear countermagic on my DR so I cut one, not sure if correct, and this comes to bite me in the ass.
G2: T1 Cage, no counters, gg.
G3: An interesting game. I flip triple Narcomoeba early, but he has Vial. I go for DR on Rider, but he Vials in catcher, exiling Bridges and countering DR. Ouch. He casts another Cursecatcher which I Force but he Dazes back. I reach a point where I'm dead on board unless I hit another Dread Return, so I can jam the one in already my yard into his Catcher, and then DR Flayer > Therapy saccing Flayer > kill with Amalgams EoT. Which is impossible since I only have 2 DRs in my deck. -.-
I think Contagion would be a better call over the Shoals here.
M3 vs. Bomberman
G1: Do my thing, holding a Bridge in hand to pitch to Phantasmagorian since my opponent has EE in play for awhile. Eventually he taps out, I shred his hand and combo off.
He has Cavern and hatebears, so out come the Forces, in come the Contagions and Unmasks.
-4 Force of Will
-2 Nether Shadow
+4 Contagion
+2 Unmask
G2: My opponent has a great hand, with Priest and Canonist. But my hand is more absurd. I dump Dredgers into my yard with Phantasmagorian when he casts a Canonist, cycle Street Wraith twice, end up with four creatures in play on my second turn. I Contagion Canonist, Therapy seeing the coast is clear and combo from there - only needing two Dread Returns thanks to Flayer into EoT Amalgams killing my opponent.
M4 vs. Burn
G1: Race Vortex with Zombie beats while shredding his hand, my opponent only has an Eidolon to work with, which doesn't do much relevant. I could've Forced the Vortex but there was no need.
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Unmask
-3 Dread Return
-2 Whirlpool Rider
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
I boarded out all my combo package here, since I felt countermagic + Therapies (ie. turning into Zombie tempo deck) would be more effective than hoping to combo quickly, even though we can do it earlier than they can usually kill us. I know he has Cage and Crypt in SB tho, so the Shoals seemed necessary.
G2: I get an early triple Bridges with some Ichorids. My opponent tries to exile Bridges by killing a Swiftspear but Force of Will saves the day. I make twelve Zombies and overwhelm him.
Anyway, the deck felt like a blast, and despite the wrap it gets I was always figuring out new avenues to beat hate and assess what to do. The countermagic felt amazing all day, and I was never lacking a blue card to pitch. Amalgam was also amazing, especially when I machine-gun killed people with a Flayer in play.
Some thoughts:
- Since I killed with Flayer > Amalgam a lot, I almost feel like cutting the second Dread Return.
- I want to find a slot for a random catch-all like Ashen Rider, or even some other interesting reanimation targets, though this runs at ends with wanting to cut a DR.
- The sideboard was just the best things I could think of. Traps might be unnecessary, which frees up some slots. Chancellor of the Annex is something I want to try again.
- Sickening Shoal or Contagion? What are the pros and cons?
- I really struggle with sideboarding. I tend to cut Shadows or trim DRs, or cut Forces when they're unnecessary. But do we ever shave Shambling Shells? Or shave more creatures? A bit lost here.
Anyway, would love to hear some thoughts!
Some points:
Don't board out Nether Shadows or other similar creatures. More recurring creatures means you can end the game more quickly, which is your biggest threat.
Contagion vs. Sickening Shoal: Think of what creatures you really want to kill with it. Probably just DRS & Containment Priest. Stick with Contagion. 9 out of 10 times it just does the job it's supposed to, the 10th time you can kill 2 creatures with it. Shoal'll never do that.
On cutting a 3rd Dread Return: That disables the combo kill, again one of the strongest points of the deck. You sure you want to do that..? If so, better skip on the dredge enablers and just add more Flayers.
Hey there folks,
These last weeks I've been following this thread and I see that almost all of you do prefer the "blue" version with FoWs and Whirlpool Riders over the Echelon's FoWless version. I'm thinking about playing Manaless again (I played it during some months last year and I had a lot of fun with it) and I like the Echelon version more than the FoW one. I suppose my question here is: Is the FoW version really superior to the Echelon one? Can you really count on winning by countering the Cage/RiP/Leyline/random hate piece our opponent will play?
I've purchased my playset of foil Priceless Amalgam (and the Vengeful Pharaohs should be on his way) and in a few weeks I'll start to play this deck in some random summer tournaments. I'll keep you posted!
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
First off - thank you for naming it "the Echelon version", that made my day!
Counting on it is a big thing to say. It's more that the opportunity that you can do it exists, which also means the opportunity exists that your opponent doesn't have an answer for your FoW.
The blue Shoal is, in my idea, wishful thinking. To counter Grafdigger's Cage with it, you need both Shoal AND a Probe in your hand. Your odds of countering RiP with it are better though (albeit still not as high as you'd want them to be).
Thanks for your quick answer!
You confirm what I was thinking, especially about the Shoal. I'm not sure of wanting to play FoWs neither; if I was to do it, maybe I would try to squeeze them in the sideboard, not making any change in the maindeck. Anyway 4 Narcos+4 Probes+4 Amalgam +1 Progenitus (I LOVE the idea of maindeck Progenitus BTW) is probably a low blue card number to support FoWs. IDK, it seems to me that the FoW plan dillutes the deck. Or maybe is simply that I like the decks composed almost exclusively of 4-ofs, and the FoW plan offends my aesthetic sense
I would appreciate to read the point of view of some FoW Manaless player. Thanks!
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
I'm pretty biased so yeah, someone who has some experience with the FoW version should give their opinion.Originally Posted by gRR!!
Thanks for your quick answer!
You confirm what I was thinking, especially about the Shoal. I'm not sure of wanting to play FoWs neither; if I was to do it, maybe I would try to squeeze them in the sideboard, not making any change in the maindeck. Anyway 4 Narcos+4 Probes+4 Amalgam +1 Progenitus (I LOVE the idea of maindeck Progenitus BTW) is probably a low blue card number to support FoWs. IDK, it seems to me that the FoW plan dillutes the deck. Or maybe is simply that I like the decks composed almost exclusively of 4-ofs, and the FoW plan offends my aesthetic sense
I would appreciate to read the point of view of some FoW Manaless player. Thanks!
The Progenitus in the main 60 is set in stone for me, it does so much work. Last weekend some guy asked me if I was waiting to see if I'd deck myself first or he'd be able to kill me first (he had a Cage out w/ 2 DRS, I just had a Narcomoeba that took him down to 7 singlehandedly, I might add). The look on his face when I told him that I'd end up discarding Progenitus to handsize every turn so there was no way in hell I possibly could deck myself was pretty funny. I still lost the game (obviously), but it still was pretty funny.
Waiting to play against that Painters guy in my local store. Too bad High Tide isn't a thing anymore :)
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
I've had the pleasure to drop a Balustrade Spy from a Show and Tell.
Unfortunately my opponent was on Omniscience and managed to combo out that turn. When I was working through all my triggers he did have a "WTF is going on?" look on his face though, lol.
If you play against Omni-Tell, with Balustrade in hand you should be able to win even if they play Show -> Omni -> Emrakul (if you are over 15 life at least). Do you wanna to attack me with this thing in your extra turn? Be my guest, I'll annihilate 6 of my Amalgams/Narcomoebas. Bridge x 4 trigger, I'll put 24 Zombies into play, may I take my turn?Too bad your opponent had taken the Cunning way!
Colorless is the new blue
http://ooh---shiny.blogspot.com
Yeah, he went Show -> Omni -> Enter the Infinite. Shit happens.
4-0'ed the local with the list I used from EE4. Match-ups were as follows:
R1 vs. Reanimator (W: 2-0)
R2 vs. TES (Bryant Cook) (W: 2-1)
R3 vs. Punishing Jund (W: 2-1)
R4 vs. Grixis (W: 2-0)
The deck feels great and has been firing on all cylinders. The counter package has been amazing as usual - wouldn't change a thing at this point.
Agreed, it is very good right now.
Would someone be enlighten me on what to cut then when sideboarding? Really struggling to find what to cut :( Especially when I'm boarding in the blue package, where I cannot cut Force of Wills. Is Shambling Shell the cut? Or cut more of the combo package and go full grind?
With Amalgam I tended to not need the final DR. In my experience DR Rider > DR Flayer (4 damage) > Therapy saccing Flayer (5 damage) and then let the Amalgams finish the job EoT tended to do the job most of the time. Of course, my experience is much more limited than everyone else, and if this is a sacred cow not to slaughter I'm more than happy to stop considering it.
Also, is there any pros cons people could outline about the flex slot creatures in the main? By this I mean:
- Chancellor of the Annex
- Faerie Macabre
- Griselbrand (I know its just another flip library creature, but why do I see it in MODO results over Rider and stuff when he does the job just as well while pitching to FoW? Is it coz' just a 7/7 Lifelinker is great?)
- Ashen Rider
- Vengeful Pharaoh
I tend to board out Probes, and, depending on the MU, a DR target, a Phantasmagorian and some 1-offs.
Concerning the various cards, let's start with Chancellor. It just buys you a little time when you have it and is not a bad DR target.
Faerie Macabre - I don't like running it in the main. Vieko, you want to pitch in on this?
Griselbrand - Yes, it's that great. A lot of decks can't answer Griselbrand. Get it out & win, you don't even have to combo out.
Ashen Rider - seems like a SB card to me. Can blow up some crucial shit.
Vengeful Pharaoh - same here. People hate it enough to want to Surgical it, which is fine by me.
I've taken a couple of pages off of Mr. Hollywood's playbook and adjusted my list: Faeries to SB and Chancellors to MB, Leylines for Storm, Crypt, Bog, Ashen for Sneak & Show (lots more of these in the MODO meta):
16 RECUR
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
14 DREDGE
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
8 UTILITY
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
8 GRAVY
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Dread Return
8 PEEK / DISRUPT
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 TARGET
1 Griselbrand
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 COUNTER
2 Chancellor of the Annex
SIDEBOARD
4 Force of Will
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Contagion
2 Ashen Rider
1 Progenitus
Conspicuous by their absence, I would recommend keeping Disrupting Shoals in the sideboard. The goal of the blue version is to maximize counter-effectiveness against game-ending cards. To rely strictly on Force of Will is dangerous in that regard. I think Disrupting Shoal gives the deck a boost in other areas, as well. With Prized Amalgam, you can counter a Show and Tell. It also stops the obvious in Rest in Peace, and while it's unlikely you'd hit a Shoal and Probe to stop Cage, at minimum it gives you an additional out in that scenario in conjunction with Force of Will. This is the reason why I went with two Chancellors as opposed to another Dread Return target and third Shoal: to ensure I could discard safely and counter anything thereafter.
It's just too good to pass up, it really is.
Fair enough! It is an excellent card and I typically run 2. I opted to take them out (for now) because I found myself boarding them less and less. I find our monster takes a rhythm against the meta, I just adjust the beat accordingly when needed :)
Played this at scg Worcester to a 5-4 finish after starting 5-1. But that's legacy.
Creatures (44)
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
3 Whirlpool Rider
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
Sorcery (12)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dread Return
Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below
Sideboard (15)
4 Force of Will
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
The thought was to be fearless and just concede to resolved hate and make them have the answer.
The LED's were cool for when they put you on the play. I did get to see it in 2 out the 3 games that I brought them in. I lived the dream once with both in my opener and the other with just LED and hut the looting in my first dredge. It made the deck quite expensive. I think that it is enough to have just LED in hand as you can dredge into looting. Did get to live the dream on the play and blow them out. Worse case they make mulligans less painful as you can just discard your hand to it to get going.
I might mess with the numbers going forward as I feel the deck has a lot of room for growth.
Will update with matchups and highlights later. If interested.
While I understand the appeal, is it really worth going with the LED and Looting plan? Both of those cards are relatively dead after the first draw (unless you have something like Sun Titan to bring LED back, which is just bad when you can win the game outright), and having a Looting in your hand is contingent on having or drawing into an LED. I just think the LED plan clashes with the counter package out of the board; you really want to be doing one or the other and it creates unneeded complexities when trying to sideboard.
I get the counters are dead after the first draw too if you can't stop hate in time, but those cards keep you alive if you can draw into them to stop game-ending hate as opposed to LED which doesn't do anything to protect you.
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