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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #41

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So, Michael, nowadays your deck loses turn zero to Leyline of the Void? I understand it fights better with Cage and RiP, but is there really no way to stand against LotV? Looks quite desperate.
    Why in the end you play Contagion over Shoal?

  2. #42
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Most nasty hatebears have toughness < 3, so Contagion kills those while also letting you kill 2 weenies with 1 card every once in a while.

  3. #43

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I just lose to Leyline. I don't want to commit slots to deal with it as it's more situational and much more uncommon than other hate.

    Contagion spreads the wealth and I like it's ability to kill multiple dudes. It can kill DRS, too.

  4. #44

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    When would you ideally kill a Deathrite Shaman?
    After you discarded a dredger, in your opponents turn (giving him the opportunity to snatch it away) of before, during your first turn (delaying yourself 2 turns)?

  5. #45

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I never bothered to commit anti-hate to my list. I did run 4 Contagion in the sideboard and while I did bring it in against hatebears and DRS, I mostly ran it for dealing with creature based combo decks like Elves and Infect.

    If I have contagion, and my opponent has a DRS, I'll only use it if my only Dredger could be exiled by it before I can dredge.
    "If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
    -Anonymous

  6. #46
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I ran Manaless at my local legacy monthly with the Spy-list I posted a while back. Went 2-3 and had some interesting ideas after doing so.

    Round 1, 2-1 vs. Esper Stoneblade:
    Game 1, he didn't see the combo coming so after stripping his hand of counters I went for it. Game 2 we went back and forth a bit until he landed Tasigur, Batterskull and Containment Priest. I scooped and we proceeded to game 3. Here, I had an Unmask and some more nice stuff. After Unmasking him, he only had a Brainstorm and 4 land in hand. He died soon after.

    Round 2, 2-0 vs. Esper Stoneblade:
    This opponent didn't quite know what she was doing. She had to read most of my cards, somewhere made me discard a dredger (lol) and wanted to start game 2 herself. So, yeah.

    Round 3, 0-2 vs. Esper Stoneblade (again):
    So, facing the same deck 3 rounds in a row. Only difference was that this guy knew what he was doing. Round 1 I got rather unlucky. I had Progenitus in my hand for just about the entire game (and at first I was quite happy about that) until I had 12 cards left in my library and in those 12 were 3 Bridges, 2 Ichorids and Flayer of the Hatebound. It is here where I thought that having Progenitus in my library could have improved that a bit, letting me shuffle my deck every now and again and all. Towards the end of the game I made the mistake of attacking with a DR'd Chancellor, leaving me open to Batterskull + Stoneforge with a Jitte while I was at 3 life. Game 2 he played incredibly well and I got unlucky with my Bridges. I started with 2 in my hand and dredged 2 into my yard with my first dredge 6. How is this unlucky? Well, he figured out it was a good plan to bounce his Batterskull back and forth and soon also hadded a Jitte stacked with counters. The game went on for quite a while, but he got me in the end. At some point I could Therapy + DR in 1 turn, but after the Therapy whiffed on Force of Will I saw he had Spell Pierce in my hand so I couldn't go for the kill. Oh well...

    Round 4, 0-2 vs. ANT
    Yeah... Well... What to say. I almost got there game 2, but he was just a little bit quicker, that's all.

    Round 5, 1-2 vs. 4C Delver
    Game 1 was over quick, thanks to Ichorid beats & zombies. Game 2 he goes land, Graffdiggers Cage. I scoop. He looks at me and asks me why. I explain, he looks at me befuddled and we go for game 3. I had a hand consisting of a Stinkweed Imp and 2 Street Wraiths so I'm feeling good. After he mullled to 6 his first turn was land, Ponder, shuffle. I discard my Imp and pass the turn. Island, Graffdiggers Cage. I extend my hand and wish him well for the top 8.

    So I started out well, but then it all went south. Two things I picked up during the day:

    Sometimes, when you already have a dredger in the yard, it pays off to discard a Nether Shadow rather than the dredger you just returned to your hand. Especially when having Probes and/or Street Wraiths in your hand. That one Shadow can make the difference between killing your opponent next turn and not.

    Dredging into Progenitus isn't bad. It lets you shuffle away a clump of Bridges that rests at the bottom of your deck.

  7. #47

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Of course you don't have to autodiscard dredgers at cleanup, if your graveyard already have some. If you dredged some more Trolls and Imps, it's better to discard the most needed business that got stuck in your hand. Bridge, Ichorid, Therapy, DR, DR targets.
    Tested Shifting Wall build, found it not as fast as I would like to (usually it's +1 Zombie for 0 mana and inability to discard at cleanup), after all the tweaks returned to the same version, as in the OP.

  8. #48
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I always did wonder why that version wouldn't run Ornithopters/Phyrexian Walkers/Shifting Walls instead of X manacost creatures. Having them stick around as blockers and potential food for Therapies/DR's seemed quite useful to me rather than just convert them to tokens.

  9. #49

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I always did wonder why that version wouldn't run Ornithopters/Phyrexian Walkers/Shifting Walls instead of X manacost creatures. Having them stick around as blockers and potential food for Therapies/DR's seemed quite useful to me rather than just convert them to tokens.
    That's because you get your tokens immidiately. Like, no Therapies, three Bridges, no creatures - play Shifting Wall, get three Zombie, reanimate what you like, But that's too heavy relying on Bridges. The strength of the deck is in the fact, that it operates quite well even without key cards (but please, just let our cards fall into graveyard and our creatures stay uncaged).

    I really like, how the deck looks nowadays, without that traditional attitude for Dredge "pray a lot, YOLO hard". The less it operates like glass cannon, the stronger it is.

  10. #50
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau View Post
    That's because you get your tokens immidiately. Like, no Therapies, three Bridges, no creatures - play Shifting Wall, get three Zombie, reanimate what you like, But that's too heavy relying on Bridges. The strength of the deck is in the fact, that it operates quite well even without key cards (but please, just let our cards fall into graveyard and our creatures stay uncaged).
    That's pretty much my entire point, I want my creatures to stay in play so I don't need the Bridges. As in, T1 discard a dredger, T2 dredge into a Narcomoeba/return an Ichorid, drop 2 0 cmc creatures and be ready to Therapy/DR as soon as you can, Bridges or not. All this deck wants to do is have 3+ creatures in play, flip the library and move to the next game.

  11. #51

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    4 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    2 Chancellor of the Annex
    2 Faerie Macabre

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    Sideboard
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Noxious Revival
    3 Chrome Mox

    Playing around with this deck/SB now. SB works great against cage, RiP, Thalia, Priest, Deathrite... Noxious can be used as graveyardhate, and turn 1 Cala Therapy against storm. Sometimes it just take some extra turns to cast Decay but i love that its uncounterble and i dont have to scoop anymore...

  12. #52
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @11 manasources (if you count Noxious Revival as such) the odds of you actually having the 2+ mana you need for AD in your opening 7 (since a good opponent WILL force you to start G2/3) are slightly < 40%. And you also want an AD/Noxious Revival with that..?

    Alrighty then...

  13. #53

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by BJeagle View Post
    4 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    2 Chancellor of the Annex
    2 Faerie Macabre

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    Sideboard
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Noxious Revival
    3 Chrome Mox

    Playing around with this deck/SB now. SB works great against cage, RiP, Thalia, Priest, Deathrite... Noxious can be used as graveyardhate, and turn 1 Cala Therapy against storm. Sometimes it just take some extra turns to cast Decay but i love that its uncounterble and i dont have to scoop anymore...
    Still loses to Leyline of the Void...

  14. #54
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dziga Murnau View Post
    Still loses to Leyline of the Void...
    And I still have to encounter the Leyline for the first time. So what's your point?

  15. #55

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    is there a any other way to play abrupt decay and no lands?

  16. #56

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by BJeagle View Post
    is there a any other way to play abrupt decay and no lands?
    Forget abrupt decay, seriously. Abrupt decay works in led dredge.....barely. There's just no reliable way to cast the card in this deck when needed, not to mention it's only good against cage. The reason why manaless went to fow is because rip exiles when it comes into play, destroying rip after its effect is probably too late. Save your money and buy a play set of fow's.

  17. #57

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    GREAT PRIMER Michael, onya man, bloody well done.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmythegreek View Post
    Forget abrupt decay, seriously. Abrupt decay works in led dredge.....barely. There's just no reliable way to cast the card in this deck when needed, not to mention it's only good against cage. The reason why manaless went to fow is because rip exiles when it comes into play, destroying rip after its effect is probably too late. Save your money and buy a play set of fow's.
    ^^^This.
    Abrupt Decay? Wrong deck mate. I wouldn't play that card in LED-Dredge let alone here. In LED Dredge I usually run Nature's Claim for that purpose.

    I've run every version of Manaless over the years, whether it's the fearless Spy version, anti-hate green or the blue-counter side plan.
    In my experience, I found none were necessarily better against dedicated hate, as each deck works on a different idea, and has their weaknesses, but I would personally roll with blue. When it works, blue has the opportunity to continue to exert pressure on the opponent as the graveyard stays intact. Whereas, the other versions either fight back from having no graveyard, or just roll over and die.
    That said, the number of time you'll counter RiP, Grafdiggers Cage etc. will be less than the times you'll see them stick and force you to scoop.
    The only sad thing about the blue plan though, is that the main reanimation target in Whirlpool Rider, is a lot less effective than Griselbrand, but can still be enough to close out a game.

  18. #58

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Thanks!

    I'll be running Manaless this weekend at a decent-sized tournament and will do an update after the tournament.

  19. #59

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Thanks!

    I'll be running Manaless this weekend at a decent-sized tournament and will do an update after the tournament.
    So, when playing dredge why do you prefer playing manaless over led versions. Reason I'm asking is because I have the led's but am on a limited budget and I'd like to play the manaless blue version. Unfortunately, getting fow's would envolve trading the led's. Basically I'm always gonna play dredge, just not sure which version to dedicate to tournaments to increase my skill with. How have your tournament results differed from each version?

  20. #60

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    X-0'd the local tonight, beating Grixis Pyromancer, Punishing Jund and Reanimator. I played a list using Serum Powder, Shifting Wall, Phyrexian Marauder and Balustrade Spy.

    It was actually pretty fun. Serum Powder augmented some slower hands and gave me a double-Street Wraith start against Jund in the face of Deathrite Shaman. Against Reanimator a Powder gave me a Faerie Macabre start, which turned out to be a blowout. I also made a boatload of tokens with the robots, which was completely relevant.

    The highlight of the evening was Dread Returning a Street Wraith to get around a gummed-up board state in round one with Swampwalk sealing the deal.

    I just like Manaless's style. It's non-interactive and does some degenerate things without folding to conditional counters or tempo cards like LED Dredge does. That's really it.

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