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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #821

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    As far as Shambling Shell is concerned, I think a lot of people don't understand that even if the deck can goldfish with 12 Dredgers it can't win without 16 Dredgers vs any form of hate post-board. Redundancy is the deck's bread and butter, it's as simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by KoomZog View Post
    "Can't win" is quite the exaggeration. If you are referring to targeted graveyard hate such as Surgical Extraction, I find opponents usually go for my Ichorids, not my dredgers. I've won plenty of sideboarded games with 12 dredgers. I'm still not saying it's optimal and I'm playing 14 now, but noone benefits from statements like "it can't win". Let's try to keep the discussion a bit more nuanced. :)
    I'm mostly with FF on this one, redundancy is the word here.
    That said, 15 was the number I settled on, but I would shave that to 14 postboard dependant on the opponent.
    I've played Manaless a lot over the years, from green to blue to all-in fearless versions, including during the time when DRS first emerged and was quickly adopted by a lot of decks.

    (All IME & IMHO) I find 12 dredgers to be optimistic, if we're talking postboard against any possible opponent. If we're expecting our first dredger to hit the yard without being removed, fine, 12 could work, but this deck can't mulligan. If we're expecting to face any deck packing DRS, ScOoze or any other repeatable extracting effect, we're going to run out of dredgers in hand to pitch to the grave fairly quickly, and I wouldn't bet on Wraith or Phantasmagorian being there to save the day.

  2. #822
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So I played manaless to a 5-2 record at a 78 man 1K yesterday which was good for 13th. I played a typical list with 14 dredgers, 2 Balustrade Spy, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 3 Dread Return and 4s everywhere else. My sideboard was
    4 Force of Will
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Leyline of Sanctity
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Contagion
    1 Vengeful Pharaoh
    1 Ashen Rider

    I played the following
    Rd 1 esper blade 2-0
    Rd 2 D&T 2-0
    Got lucky here.
    Rd 3 Lands 0-2
    This still feels like a terrible match up every time I see it. Fast 20/20 s and instant speed bogs are rough.
    Rd 4 Elves 0-2
    Another poor match up game 1 I was a turn to slow and game 2 I kept a solid hand that had everything and he opened with 2 Leylines. Good match.
    Rd 5 Sneak and Show 2-1
    Rd 6 mono R stompy 2-1
    Rd 7 RUG delver 2-1
    Game 3 was crazy and I can only blame a long day. He led on trop. delver.* I followed by discarding troll. He revealed brainstorm attacked for 3 played mongoose missed a land drop and passed. I dredged in to narcomeaba, Amalgam and Therapy and other stuff.I decided to cast the Therapy. He told me I need to name something and I told him that naming is on resolution. He tanks and let's it resolve. I name brainstorm and see 3x brainstorm, daze and fluster. Sometimes you win the lottery and they don't counter your spells. At that point the race was on. He ponders into land and I trade with goose. He rips and plays monkey. I trade the monkey and keep doing the dredge thing. I dread returned to get his fluster and Therapied the daze for the combo at 4 life. I misplayed my combo turn by blanking on the 4th amalgam in hand. Thankfully I noticed before my last one game back on my end step to set up lethal on his end step. I did gave him an extra draw step to find a burn spell but he didn't and he died on his end step to my last amalgam.

  3. #823

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    So I played manaless to a 5-2 record at a 78 man 1K yesterday which was good for 13th. I played a typical list with 14 dredgers, 2 Balustrade Spy, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 3 Dread Return and 4s everywhere else. My sideboard was
    4 Force of Will
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Leyline of Sanctity
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Contagion
    1 Vengeful Pharaoh
    1 Ashen Rider
    Congrats on your great result
    Can you give more details about your post-SB games?
    And aren't 2 Leyline of Sanctity either 2 too much or 2 not enough?
    What did you side out to enter your Forces of Will?

  4. #824

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Top Deck Games, NJ, 12/3/17
    31 people (5 rds, cut to top 8)
    3-1-1 (8-4) Finished #8, in the money

    About a year give or take a month since I last played organized magic. Went with my tried and true. Last iteration of the deck I had was a horde mode, salvages, bloodghast, ashen ghoul, silliness. Had an LED, faithless looting SB, crazy talk. Oh, and my DCI number was locked/closed/invalid- so I got a temporary one. Have sadz, need to fix.

    Changed to a more traditional blue package.

    4 Golgari-Grave Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Shambling Shell
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Ichorid
    2 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    2 Whirlpool Rider
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Vengeful Pharaoh
    3 Dread Retrun
    4 Bridge From Below
    4 Gixtaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy

    SB:
    3 Ensaring Bridge
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Ashen Rider
    1 Progenitus
    4 Force of Will
    2 Disrupting Shoal


    I was very fortunate to play against favorable match-ups and against opponents unfamiliar with manaless (all but one opponent choosing to play after they’ve seen the deck and taken a loss.) The deck felt good, but I didn’t really face any adversity, which is the point of zigging when others are zagging.

    Rd 1 0-0-1
    Morgan – Eldrazi White
    G1 - He won the roll, played
    Reveal a chancellor from opening hand. He pays 1 for a Chalice on 0. He does 8 damage to himself with Ancient Tomb. I had a slow go of it, chumping with Narcos and Shadows for a good bit of time. He had an Eldrazi Displacer, Blade Splicer and Golem attacking me. I finally found my combo pieces and returned a Flayer, then 4 Prized returned EoT to finish the game.

    G2 – He opted to play
    This time he got there, his dudes were bigger than my dudes. I had slow dredgers (Thugs and Shells) but they couldn’t find any guys. He added a TKS to a board with Thalia, H-C and I was quickly dead thereafter.

    G3 – I opted to draw, he mulled to 5
    He wasn’t happy with his hand, but he drew and played a T2 Thalia, G-T, pretty pretty good. We trade chumps back and forth, I swing with a narco and icky’s. He misplays on something because he thought a street wraith was a bridges. The Round goes to turns, he has me at 9, he’s at 10, and I’ve finally slowplayed built a large army to kill him on board but the game ends. I forget at what point, but there was an opportunity to kill Thalia at one point, and I mistakenly don’t take it. Round ends in a draw.

    Rd 2 1-0-1
    Jason – 4c Control

    G1 – He played
    This was a slow burn game at first, Snappy swings at me, a narco & shadow at him. He thoughtseized a narco on the first turn, which slowed me down a good bit. I got him down with an icky/narco/shadow. Finally found some combo pieces, Whirlpooled twice in one turn (4 & 2 draws) but found no Flayer, however, did amass an army so he conceded as he was down to two having fetched twice looking for answers.

    G2 – he opted to play, mulled to 6, Chancellor revealed
    He opened with fetch – U.Sea, Thoughtseize target me. Before I flip my hand over, I remembered the chancellor, so that spell was countered. Game begin in earnest, he surgicals an icky, then in quick form as I’m shuffling, cast Snappy and looks to surgical GGT, but that’s blanked by a Street Wraith. He kinda goes on tilt after that. The rest is kinda normal, his interactive cards have little to interact with, and I make an army to sing for the win.

    Rd 3 2-0-1
    Anthony – Nic Fit
    G1 – He payed, mull 6
    I have a lot of gas to start, two probes and a S.W. He starts with a Veteran Explorer and swings for one. I use the probes and flip a chunk of the deck. Naturally flip the Flayer, use S.W. to get a tad more gas, between icky, narco and shadow attacks, two flayer triggers, and a returned Chancellor just because for the win.

    G2 – He played
    I have a probe in hand. He attacks with an E. Witness, that succumbs to a Pharaoh trigger. I attack with an icky. Then return a Flayer, set up for the kill on my next turn. On upkeep two shadows, two icky,on dredge two narco triggers, then my eot two Prized triggers from Flayer for the win.

    Rd 4 2-1-1
    Peter – Beserker Infect
    G1 – He played, Mull 6, Chancellor reveal
    Gosh darnit, someone who is stupid fast, has countermagic, not playing by conventional rules.
    I cast a G.Probe, which he daze’d. I almost got there, turn before he won, cast a therapy which he FoW, got him down to 1 with attacks over two turns. He b’stormed into 2nd pump spell to put game away, a blight agent with invigorate + beserk, die with 11 poison.

    G2 – I put him on the play
    This is the first game I SB, taking out 2 Phanta, DR, Flayer, and two other things for the 6 counterspells, all for naught.
    I just die really fast, b. agent for 1, then I take 8 poison the next turn, and am dead on board after an unimpressive dredge, died on turn 4 or 5. Kinda wish the counterspells were creature removal, but it doesn’t really matter.

    Rd 5 3-1-1
    Mark – Bombardment
    This was a very fun game. Mathematically I wasn’t dead to going top 8, but didn’t expect it. Played this game loose and with fun.
    G1 – He played
    Never really got started in this one. I cycled a S.W., but took beats to carrion feeder, bloodghast, collective brutality and zombie tokens. Am slightly worried because he’s familiar with the deck (a friend of his plays it) and he’s very sharp with the bridge triggers.

    G2 – I put him on the play, mull 6
    I sideboard out 3 Chancellors to
    I just have sooo much gas in the opening hand, Christmas land type – 3 probes and a S.W. I just go off on my turn flipping chunks of my yard with the g.probes. Takes about 3 turns, and I finally get Flayer and a scoop to the triggers. Only self-inflicted damage to me.

    G3 – He puts me on the play (first time all day)
    I have 2 probes in hand
    He’s making tokens, nuking my Bridges, game is going back and forth, has a Bombardment in play, making use of a Bloodghast. He gets me down to 7 at the end (4 damage self-inlficted), I swing with a prized and shadow to take him down to 14, then my next turn I start to get silly with the combo bits, my opponent checks my yard for the appropriate number of dread returns and targets then concedes, math and triggers are hard on everyone. Whew!

    So I get up from the table, watch a few other games finish, then my ride is asking if I’m ready to leave. I want to pick up some singles, so I stick around for a tad, but the store is busy, no free person to assist. Go back to the tourney to just check top 8, and lookie lookie, I made it. The other 7 had already decided to split before I reenter the room. Part of me is wanting to be a dick and go, “Well, I didn’t agree to split.” But that’s bad karma, and I’m on Manaless dredge, so the karma points are important and shouldn’t be squandered. Besides, $125 > $30+$30(paid my buddies entry too).

    All in all, a good time. Most of the hate seen was Surgical Extractions, most times players didn’t have it in game (1 hit on Icky, 1 blanked by S.W.). The NicFit player also had containment priest. Got lucky with my match-ups, avoided DRS all day by dumb luck. Speaking with a Red Stompy deck, he had Leylines of the Void, would’ve been bad with the resistors as well. Top seed was playing Miracles, also saw Reanimator with a high seed, Punishing Jund and Dark Maverick. Unsure about the last two decks.

    Time to spend some store credit on a Tiny Leaders deck just because and maybe step away for another year.

  5. #825
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Marina_ View Post
    Congrats on your great result
    Can you give more details about your post-SB games?
    And aren't 2 Leyline of Sanctity either 2 too much or 2 not enough?
    What did you side out to enter your Forces of Will?
    Thanks. Sure from memory and my poor notes. Esper blade had turn 1 spell bomb which I was able to play though with opening thug and troll. D&T had Priest game 2 and I had the contagion. I swung twice and DRed a Flayer for lethal. Lands is a bad match up with MD bogs which is why I want Leyline and I might go back to 3. Surgical might still be worth it. Elves had LoTV which we are cold to. Sneak Show didn't show me any real hate and I lost game 1 to a punt. Red Stompy has natural hate for us in 3ball and bridge. I lost game 1 here as well when he led on Bridge and not 3ball. I got to cast therapy and my gut said 3ball but I named something else and he had 3ball which shut me out. I got him to 5 before he could empty his hand. Games 2 and 3 I had FoW as interaction. I think I just trimmed numbers like shadow, shell, bridge, maybe a spy or 2 for ashen rider as well(not 100% on this). I do a lot of sideboarding on feel and I don't always cut the same cards. Play and Draw matter here and I have been know to cut Chancellors in some number on the draw for forces. I think the only matchup I saw where I boarded out all 4 was D&T because I would rather have FoW. Blue count does matter and I don't always bring in all 4 because as others have said "redundancy" is the key and over boarding is a thing. I am still not sure how I feel about Surgical but it felt good so far. I will probably change my board for the next event. Vengeful Pharaoh is probably is the weakest card because doesn't do enough. It is good and makes people think twice before attacking once they have seen it. I have gotten Thalias and such with it but I think Dakmor Salvage might be better for this if we can stop RiP. I am also not sold that we need the FoWs because I have had just as much success with out them as with them. Before the pitch forks come out I am not leaving home with out them but as others have said so many options and so many spots. I feel like we have a lot of strong sideboard options available to us and it comes down to what we want to fight.

    @ahg113 congrats.

  6. #826

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    Thanks. Sure from memory and my poor notes. Esper blade had turn 1 spell bomb which I was able to play though with opening thug and troll. D&T had Priest game 2 and I had the contagion. I swung twice and DRed a Flayer for lethal. Lands is a bad match up with MD bogs which is why I want Leyline and I might go back to 3. Surgical might still be worth it. Elves had LoTV which we are cold to. Sneak Show didn't show me any real hate and I lost game 1 to a punt. Red Stompy has natural hate for us in 3ball and bridge. I lost game 1 here as well when he led on Bridge and not 3ball. I got to cast therapy and my gut said 3ball but I named something else and he had 3ball which shut me out. I got him to 5 before he could empty his hand. Games 2 and 3 I had FoW as interaction. I think I just trimmed numbers like shadow, shell, bridge, maybe a spy or 2 for ashen rider as well(not 100% on this). I do a lot of sideboarding on feel and I don't always cut the same cards. Play and Draw matter here and I have been know to cut Chancellors in some number on the draw for forces. I think the only matchup I saw where I boarded out all 4 was D&T because I would rather have FoW. Blue count does matter and I don't always bring in all 4 because as others have said "redundancy" is the key and over boarding is a thing. I am still not sure how I feel about Surgical but it felt good so far. I will probably change my board for the next event. Vengeful Pharaoh is probably is the weakest card because doesn't do enough. It is good and makes people think twice before attacking once they have seen it. I have gotten Thalias and such with it but I think Dakmor Salvage might be better for this if we can stop RiP. I am also not sold that we need the FoWs because I have had just as much success with out them as with them. Before the pitch forks come out I am not leaving home with out them but as others have said so many options and so many spots. I feel like we have a lot of strong sideboard options available to us and it comes down to what we want to fight.

    @ahg113 congrats.
    No benefit with fow? Interesting...What about unmask?

  7. #827
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    No benefit with fow? Interesting...What about unmask?
    I will not run less than 4 in my Spy list SB.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  8. #828

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I will not run less than 4 in my Spy list SB.
    How should a spy list side look like?

    4 Unmask
    X contagion / shoal and...?

  9. #829
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    How should a spy list side look like?

    4 Unmask
    X contagion / shoal and...?
    You can't forget about Faerie Macabre and Ashen Rider. They are great running multiple copies. I have 1x Progenitus in my board for the painter decks in the local meta.

    EDIT: This is if you're running the Spy non-blue list! My blue list and board is different.

  10. #830

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by scottpou View Post
    You can't forget about Faerie Macabre and Ashen Rider. They are great running multiple copies. I have 1x Progenitus in my board for the painter decks in the local meta.

    EDIT: This is if you're running the Spy non-blue list! My blue list and board is different.
    Yeah i am about to return the format after years. Maybe 3.

    My MD looks like:

    15 dredgers (3 shambling) all foil :P
    4 wraith
    4 return foil :P
    4 therapy
    4 ichorid
    4 shadow
    4 amagalm
    4 moebas
    1 macabre
    3 rider
    4 bridges
    4 ghorian foil :P

    NO probes...should i include them?

    SB

    3 unmask
    2 macabre
    2 contagion
    4 fow
    2 blue shoal
    2 ashen rider

    I think probes worth. My fear is the mulligan rate. In goldfishing i almost have 0 mulligan rate thx to dredgers at opening. However the strenght of probe for going off in your turn makes me to consider it.

    Could you help?

  11. #831
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @GoldenCid I'll look up my SB in the morning. I'll get back to you with that!
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  12. #832

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    @GoldenCid I'll look up my SB in the morning. I'll get back to you with that!
    Thx a lot!

  13. #833
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    No problem!

    Here's my full 75:
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba

    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Progenitus

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    SB:
    3 Vengeful Pharaoh
    4 Contagion
    4 Unmask
    4 Mindbreak Trap

    Contagion to deal w/ DRS/Contagion Priest, Unmask to nab Rest in Peaces and probably vs. Storm. Mindbreak Trap doesn't need explaining, I think. Vengeful Pharaoh you board in for the fair MUs. People hate attacking into that and sometimes even DRS/Surgical that instead of something that matters.

    The most important thing with the Spy list though is knowing when not to sideboard, at all. Some decks have such a hard time dealing with your main game plan it's hardly worth it to dilute that (and sometimes speed also is you biggest ally. Kill them before their hate kills you). The first card I board out generally is Gitaxian Probe.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  14. #834

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    That list rocks!! THX! However i am very used to chancellor...tight choice probe vs chancellor..

    Off course trap does not need explanation, but it is always and only useful agaist storm right?

    Dont you prefere raider effects instead of pharaoth effects? Is it just relevant in your meta?

  15. #835
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I dropped Chancellor when Prized Amalgam came out and haven't really looked back since. If I were to make a cut for Chancellors, it'd probably be Probe. Chancellor is very, very good. But so is a Time Walk that makes my Therapy hit 100%.

    As for Rider effects, here's the thing. When I can resolve Dread Return, why shouldn't I just go for the win? The same holds true vs. Sneak & Show - drop Spy, flip your library, Progenitus becomes your library and you kill them the following turn. Sure, I lose some ground vs. Omni-show, but the odds of you actually having the Rider in hand when they Show and Tell for Omniscience are slim at best.

    Vengeful Pharaoh is just funny as hell (and actually works perfectly fine without the help of other cards, which I really like).
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  16. #836

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I dropped Chancellor when Prized Amalgam came out and haven't really looked back since. If I were to make a cut for Chancellors, it'd probably be Probe. Chancellor is very, very good. But so is a Time Walk that makes my Therapy hit 100%.
    This is a predicament for me. On one side i use chancellor as time walk and DR target as well. On the other you are right that probe allows you to cast therapy for a 100%! Let the test bring the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    As for Rider effects, here's the thing. When I can resolve Dread Return, why shouldn't I just go for the win? The same holds true vs. Sneak & Show - drop Spy, flip your library, Progenitus becomes your library and you kill them the following turn. Sure, I lose some ground vs. Omni-show, but the odds of you actually having the Rider in hand when they Show and Tell for Omniscience are slim at best.
    This is f*ck*ng true! You conviced me for spy (which i own all foil :P)

  17. #837

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I dropped Chancellor when Prized Amalgam came out and haven't really looked back since
    This.
    I played Manaless just recently, blue list, my main very similar to yours. I went 4-1, losing out to Death & Taxes c/o Rip/Helm combo. Pretty happy with that result!
    I run 2x Flayer main (-1 Amalgam), just in case someone extracts my GGT's, as I wanna win on the same turn I resolve my first DR (Waiting a turn & attacking with zombies isn't where I wanna be).
    Side; I'm running 3x Faerie Macabre (instead of VP) as Reanimator, Dredge, Lands & other grave decks make an appearance more often than I'd like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    As for Rider effects, here's the thing. When I can resolve Dread Return, why shouldn't I just go for the win? The same holds true vs. Sneak & Show - drop Spy, flip your library, Progenitus becomes your library and you kill them the following turn. Sure, I lose some ground vs. Omni-show, but the odds of you actually having the Rider in hand when they Show and Tell for Omniscience are slim at best.
    I ran Whirlpool Rider & Whirlpool Drake extensively for approx. a year or so to test with Force of Will
    Overall I liked them. I favoured Rider due to the synergy with Disrupting Shoal (think RiP etc.) but in the end Spy won me over.
    Spy just works, and whilst it's an all-in, you can win on that turn, whereas Rider doesn't always offer that.
    I think it's a stronger option than Griselbrand, given Spy does nothing for an opponent using Reanimate etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Vengeful Pharaoh is just funny as hell (and actually works perfectly fine without the help of other cards, which I really like).
    Yeah you're right. I drove a Berzerk/Infect player nuts last year running VP.
    He sat there bitching through the game that I was playing a stupid deck. I agreed. Would've been great if I'd won that match to rub it in, next time!


    My thoughts on manaless dredge currently;
    After playing every version of Manaless I've read about online, I think Spy is not only the better option for such a glass-cannon deck like this, it's also the most reliable win post-Dread return. All other versions still have the chance of letting their opponent snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Whereas if you resolve a Spy, you should win right there and then without needing to wait a turn, should they not extract critical pieces.
    IMO - If you let your opponent take a turn after you resolve your 1st DR, (without experiencing any hate) you're doing it wrong.

  18. #838
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Spy is nice and simple. It does nothing fancy, but is the most efficient and surefire way to get the job done.

    And the kicker for Spy is that when you run Progenitus there aren't enough Surgicals in the world to extract all the critical pieces. They either die to the combo right then and there or they die to a flood of beaters the following turn (if they somehow manage to stop your combo). I love this deck

    I've both 3-0, double draw to top 8'd and 0-5'd with it, by the way .
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  19. #839

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    NO probes...should i include them?

    SB

    3 unmask
    2 macabre
    2 contagion
    4 fow
    2 blue shoal
    2 ashen rider

    I think probes worth. My fear is the mulligan rate. In goldfishing i almost have 0 mulligan rate thx to dredgers at opening. However the strenght of probe for going off in your turn makes me to consider it.

    Could you help?
    If you really what to use FoW out of the board, you have to maximize the blue card count in the deck. In that situation Gitaxian probe is a must imho.

  20. #840
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    I ran Whirlpool Rider & Whirlpool Drake extensively for approx. a year or so to test with Force of Will
    Overall I liked them. I favoured Rider due to the synergy with Disrupting Shoal (think RiP etc.) but in the end Spy won me over.
    Spy just works, and whilst it's an all-in, you can win on that turn, whereas Rider doesn't always offer that.
    I think it's a stronger option than Griselbrand, given Spy does nothing for an opponent using Reanimate etc.

    My thoughts on manaless dredge currently;
    After playing every version of Manaless I've read about online, I think Spy is not only the better option for such a glass-cannon deck like this, it's also the most reliable win post-Dread return. All other versions still have the chance of letting their opponent snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Whereas if you resolve a Spy, you should win right there and then without needing to wait a turn, should they not extract critical pieces.
    IMO - If you let your opponent take a turn after you resolve your 1st DR, (without experiencing any hate) you're doing it wrong.
    I have been playing manaless for a solid 2+ yrs now as my regular deck and have played it all and I agree that spy is the best at killing in one turn. We should only have to cast 2 DR to win. The first on spy and the second on flayer. We should be able to say "go" let the Amalgams enter and kill our opponent. This is given that we have swung for some amount of damage which isn't hard to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Spy is nice and simple. It does nothing fancy, but is the most efficient and surefire way to get the job done.

    And the kicker for Spy is that when you run Progenitus there aren't enough Surgicals in the world to extract all the critical pieces. They either die to the combo right then and there or they die to a flood of beaters the following turn (if they somehow manage to stop your combo). I love this deck
    I agree it is simple but a smart player will let spy resolve and extract your DRs in response to narco triggers and sink your ship. Yes you get to untap with a TON of guys and hopefully be able to swing for a win but it isn't a guarantee given Snapcasters and the cantrip cartel.

    Quote Originally Posted by perian View Post
    If you really what to use FoW out of the board, you have to maximize the blue card count in the deck. In that situation Gitaxian probe is a must imho.
    I don't think FoW dictates success with the deck but I am going to keep them in the board as they are very good when they work. Gitaxian Probe is good at what it does and helps generate faster kills and should have a spot in the deck blue count aside.

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