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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #841
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    I agree it is simple but a smart player will let spy resolve and extract your DRs in response to narco triggers and sink your ship. Yes you get to untap with a TON of guys and hopefully be able to swing for a win but it isn't a guarantee given Snapcasters and the cantrip cartel.
    Let them. Progenitus, handsize, Cabal Therapy and Phantasmagorian don't care . Even if it takes a few turns, I will get there
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  2. #842

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    ...We should only have to cast 2 DR to win. The first on spy and the second on flayer. We should be able to say "go" let the Prized Amalgams enter and kill our opponent. This is given that we have swung for some amount of damage which isn't hard to do.
    A single flayer & 4 PA's entering at the endstep is 16 damage. Sac Flayer to Therapy before the end-step, for an extra 5.
    I'm not arguing with you. PA has changed how we combo.
    I used to use 2 Flayers before PA arrived too (DR 1st Flayer, sac 1st to DR for your 2nd Flayer, sac 2nd to last therapy = 27 damage).
    But;
    If we can cast 1 DR, there's a 99.9% chance we can use multiple, if not all of them.
    The reason I run 2x Flayer of the Hatebound still, is so won't necessarily need GGT, therapy targetting Flayer, damage to the face or even our main combo piece in Spy. I run into Surgical Extraction & DRS more than any other hate pieces, I've had Spy exiled plenty of times. Spy & GGT seem to be the popular picks. Playing against people who understand this deck can be tough. 2 Flayers just gives me a better chance of finding one should Spy be exiled.

  3. #843

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Took the deck to a FNM last friday. It went great (NOT)! I ended 0-3.
    R1 against Foodchain. G1 I dredged for 24 but never saw a DR or a Cabal. Lost to an infinite Ballista. G2 he drops Leyline T0.
    R2 against grixis delver. G1 awesome dredges and T2 it ended for him. G2 T1 DRS, T2 surgical on DR, T3 Nihil Spellbomb. G3 about the same, but spellbomb instead of surgical.
    R3 against D&T. G1 dredge some, win some. G2 dredge some, in response to Cabal flash in Containment Priest and protection with Mom against Contagion. G3 T2 RiP.
    Well, better luck next time...

  4. #844
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Sucks, man! It happens though. Better luck next time!
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  5. #845

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklingske View Post
    R1 against Foodchain. G1 I dredged for 24 but never saw a DR or a Cabal.
    Brutal.
    DDD / Death & Taxes

  6. #846

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Folks, I'm returning to Magic after quite some hiatus (stopped around 2011 and I'm returning since last year, played mostly modern until now) and I'm really interested in joining the Dredge train. I bumped onto this list at MTGTop8, do you guys reccomend it? I'm asking because the primer is a bit dated, I have no idea if relevant stuff changed in this meantime. Link: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17152&d=306119&f=LE

    One of the things I noticed is that it does not run FoW in the SB, and that'd help me in the beginning being more budget-friendly than the pitch version. Is this also viable or are FoWs just superior in every aspect of the deck? Thanks a lot in advance, it's been a little tough trying to find my way around hate cards and online matches alone in this wilderness called Legacy.

  7. #847
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Nope, don't recommend it. Cutting dredgers for Chancellors is a bad idea. You shouldn't go below 15 dredgers, it's just asking to shoot yourself in the foot. If you want to keep it budget friendly, just go with a standard Spy list.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  8. #848

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I had a couple of games at a local store with heterogeneous results. The deck is unique indeed. I used an identical list than echelon except for -4 probe + 4 chancellor.

    Going home i was thinking about if the dryad + removal pack is tested enough.

    The deck performs well in a general manner agaist most deck except those which run leyline, cage or rip. Shaman is a minnor issue.
    Most cards used to deal those cards (fow, unmask, shoal) must be there when opponent cast them. At cost of -2 cards in hand and a reduction of DDD potential with persisting risk of a second top deck.

    Dryad - removal pack although unestable is reactive. Survives to a resolved hate card.

    I am thinking on a side like this (with an equal MD except for -4 chacellor + 4 arbor)

    2 revent silence
    4 nature claim
    2 Green fetch
    1 forest
    3 contagion / shoal
    3 unmask

    Comments are pretty welcome

  9. #849
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    Going home i was thinking about if the dryad + removal pack is tested enough.

    The deck performs well in a general manner agaist most deck except those which run leyline, cage or rip. Shaman is a minnor issue.
    Most cards used to deal those cards (fow, unmask, shoal) must be there when opponent cast them. At cost of -2 cards in hand and a reduction of DDD potential with persisting risk of a second top deck.

    Dryad - removal pack although unestable is reactive. Survives to a resolved hate card.

    I am thinking on a side like this (with an equal MD except for -4 chacellor + 4 arbor)

    2 revent silence
    4 nature claim
    2 Green fetch
    1 forest
    3 contagion / shoal
    3 unmask

    Comments are pretty welcome
    The answer is others have,(myself included) and I would rather have a sideboard with cards that do things. In your example there are not enough green sources to reliably cast your green spells. 4 fetch 2 basic plus 4 dryads main is what most people were playing before we PA and we had a density of blue spells for FOW. I like the idea of trying to be proactive when it come to hate instead of reactive. Granted you need to have the cards in your opening hand but that's the risk we take. All I can say is test it out for yourself and see what you think.

  10. #850

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    I had a couple of games at a local store with heterogeneous results. The deck is unique indeed. I used an identical list than echelon except for -4 probe + 4 chancellor.

    Going home i was thinking about if the dryad + removal pack is tested enough.

    The deck performs well in a general manner agaist most deck except those which run leyline, cage or rip. Shaman is a minnor issue.
    Most cards used to deal those cards (fow, unmask, shoal) must be there when opponent cast them. At cost of -2 cards in hand and a reduction of DDD potential with persisting risk of a second top deck.

    Dryad - removal pack although unestable is reactive. Survives to a resolved hate card.

    I am thinking on a side like this (with an equal MD except for -4 chacellor + 4 arbor)

    2 revent silence
    4 nature claim
    2 Green fetch
    1 forest
    3 contagion / shoal
    3 unmask

    Comments are pretty welcome
    Typically, that plan hasn't been successful, it verges too close to attempting to play 'not-magic' & 'magic' in the same game. Dryad's, green suite was a thing when we were playing Grizzlebrand. We've moved off one of the derpiest I win creatures and the green suite at roughly the same time. I would personally not go back to that. The deck is very meta-dependant, sometimes it just rolls over and dies, leyline of the void, RIP.

    Removing so much stuff to get the green suite in dilutes the deck.

    However, if you are really interested in testing, I advise a hoarde moar approach, using darkmor salvages in combination with riftstone portals, bloodghast, etc. It's more in tune with the deck, fights taxing effects. Sprinkle a dryad or two for variety of sources. But try to stay as true to being unconventional, that is the decks strength.

  11. #851

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Typically, that plan hasn't been successful, it verges too close to attempting to play 'not-magic' & 'magic' in the same game. Dryad's, green suite was a thing when we were playing Grizzlebrand. We've moved off one of the derpiest I win creatures and the green suite at roughly the same time. I would personally not go back to that. .... Removing so much stuff to get the green suite in dilutes the deck.
    I used to play this green version back before RiP, Cage & DRS got printed. From memory, Hollywood and a few others put a fair bit of time into it.
    I can't say that this plan doesn't have merit, because it clearly does - my argument against it is simply that this sideboard idea isn't consistent or reliable, which is a problem given it clearly dominates the sideboard.
    That said, it's not all bad - Dryad Arbor in the main can be quite useful.

  12. #852
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @GoldenCid: I agree with the others on the green SB. Too many things have to line up perfectly for it to be useful while costing you a lot of valuable SB space. The chance of you having a manasource + the card you need in hand are too low to be considered viable. And your odds for pulling it off get even worse when your opponent is playing blue (i.e. Daze/FoW/other counters).
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  13. #853
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Putting a spy list together at the moment, thinking about something like this:
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    3 Prized Amalgam
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    3 Shambling Shell
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    SB: 1 Ashen Rider
    SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 1 Progenitus
    SB: 1 Vengeful Pharaoh
    SB: 4 Sickening Shoal
    SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap

    I thought about 4 Unmasks in the board so you could discard turn 1 when they put you on the play in game two, but the plan works less than 50% of the time with the no mulligans and all that and I can't see the card doing work vs Rest in Peace. DNT just jams it before you can go off and UWx blade decks can leave it on top off Ponder/Brainstorm or just jam it t2 as well. Has anyone ever had good experiences with proactive Unmasks before getting to discard?

    Do you board out Chancellors vs Grixis Delver to dodge a sure Cabal Therapy?

  14. #854

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    Putting a spy list together at the moment, thinking about something like this:
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    3 Nether Shadow
    3 Prized Amalgam
    3 Dread Return

    Do you board out Chancellors vs Grixis Delver to dodge a sure Cabal Therapy?
    Personally I've never played Chancellor VS Grixis, so I can't answer that one as well as some here.
    I used to run the card years ago. I kinda feel Amalgam & Chancellor are vying for the same spot.
    Not saying you shouldn't, but I would want a full 4 DR & Shadow no matter what else.

    IME VS Grixis, our bridges won't last 2 seconds. They play Surg & DRS - we have Phants & Wraith, so we can race.
    Racing is the hard tho if they're running discard (stopping us dropping card #8 in the yard).
    That said, all of their creatures are 2 toughness or less - Delver, DRS & Pyro are all vulnerable to Contagion if you get past counter.
    Contagion is better than Sickening Shoal.
    Personally, I'd include all the creatures you can, side out bridges & consider siding in 3 Vengeful Pharaoh or Contagion.

  15. #855
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Personally I've never played Chancellor VS Grixis, so I can't answer that one as well as some here.
    I used to run the card years ago. I kinda feel Amalgam & Chancellor are vying for the same spot.
    Not saying you shouldn't, but I would want a full 4 DR & Shadow no matter what else.

    IME VS Grixis, our bridges won't last 2 seconds. They play Surg & DRS - we have Phants & Wraith, so we can race.
    Racing is the hard tho if they're running discard (stopping us dropping card #8 in the yard).
    That said, all of their creatures are 2 toughness or less - Delver, DRS & Pyro are all vulnerable to Contagion if you get past counter.
    Contagion is better than Sickening Shoal.
    Personally, I'd include all the creatures you can, side out bridges & consider siding in 3 Vengeful Pharaoh or Contagion.
    I feel without Chancellor you run the risk of losing to the most common t1 play in the format more often than necessary. If you don't have Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian+multiple dredgers or Chancellor to timewalk you just lose if they eat your discard every turn. It's also a great DR target if you need to do something with low resources under pressure from DRS or in a hurry vs Storm without a Spy in the yard.

    Siding out Bridges seems really leftfield, can anyone else speak for this? I was thinking more along the lines of -3 Spy -1 something (Flayer most likely) +4 Shoal, maybe -1 something +1 Pharaoh. Even 1-2 free bears can do work in the matchup if they don't land TNN or Angler.

    You might be right about the Contagion, although Sickening Shoal can theoretically kill a 3/3 - 7/7 Scavening Ooze and a Containment Priest carrying a sword. Most importantly there's a foil

  16. #856
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    I feel without Chancellor you run the risk of losing to the most common t1 play in the format more often than necessary. If you don't have Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian+multiple dredgers or Chancellor to timewalk you just lose if they eat your discard every turn. It's also a great DR target if you need to do something with low resources under pressure from DRS or in a hurry vs Storm without a Spy in the yard.

    Siding out Bridges seems really leftfield, can anyone else speak for this? I was thinking more along the lines of -3 Spy -1 something (Flayer most likely) +4 Shoal, maybe -1 something +1 Pharaoh. Even 1-2 free bears can do work in the matchup if they don't land TNN or Angler.

    You might be right about the Contagion, although Sickening Shoal can theoretically kill a 3/3 - 7/7 Scavening Ooze and a Containment Priest carrying a sword. Most importantly there's a foil
    I've succesfully Unmask-ed RiP on my T1s, so it can absolutely work.

    As for boarding out the combo kill - why would you? Often times your best bet is to race your opponent (i.e. assemble the combo kill before they find the hate you can't beat) and your combo is the easiest way to do that.

    I do love me some Chancellor, but I don't know if I'd want it over Gitaxian Probe. Chancellor in the best scenario prevents you from dying for a turn, Probe puts you closer to winning.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  17. #857
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi everybody,

    it is my first post here but I'm reading you since long time and playing the deck online for a while now.
    I've always played the Balustrade Spy version of the deck, but today I got my playset of Force of Wills and wanted to mount a list with the "blue package".

    I'm thinking about this list, played by Sean Brown at the end of 2016 (you can read about the tournament report here).

    I just modified it a bit, but nothing special:
    // 60 Maindeck
    // 40 Creature
    3 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    2 Whirlpool Rider

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Bridge from Below

    // 4 Instant
    4 Force of Will

    // 12 Sorcery
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 8 Creature
    SB: 1 Chancellor of the Annex
    SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 3 Vengeful Pharaoh

    // 6 Instant
    SB: 2 Contagion
    SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal

    // 1 Sorcery
    SB: 1 Unmask

    I just wanted to know what you think about it, if you think I should modify something and similar. Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks, have a nice one.
    Last edited by Atreyu; 02-23-2018 at 06:43 PM.

  18. #858

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Atreyu View Post
    ...today I got my playset of Force of Wills and wanted to mount a list with the "blue package".
    3 Chancellor of the Annex
    2 Nether Shadow
    2 Whirlpool Rider
    4 Force of Will
    Congrats on getting the FoW's!
    I feel Shadow is one of the better cards in this deck as it enables Dread Return consistently. I always run 4.

    I've been playing the blue list for ages, feel free to go thru the old Manaless thread for lots of analysis.
    There's different ways of playing it IME.

    Some insist that FoW should only ever be in the side, as they dilute the main, I think this is mostly true. I've tried/tested FoW in different numbers in the main and side for ages. IME, FoW can definitely be useful in the main, however I don't think they're necessary.

    When it comes to combo - I think you need at least 3 Rider. I prefer more Rider than less, so you can safely exile one via FoW if you need to.
    Bear in mind Whirlpool Drake is a better version of Rider, but whether you play them or not depends how useful you find D-Shoal to be.
    Mindbreak Trap is a good side option for the blue side too.

  19. #859
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Mindbreak Trap is a good side option for the blue side too.
    Mindbreak Trap is good in any Manaless SB
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Congrats on getting the FoW's!
    Thanks! It was since a long time I was planning to buy them and at some point I had the possibility and decided to do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    I feel Shadow is one of the better cards in this deck as it enables Dread Return consistently. I always run 4.
    By deciding to have the FoWs in the main I had to cut something to find the space for them and I decided to put them in the Shambling Shell/Nether Shadow slots. Actually I don't know what else to cut to find the two slots for the Nether Shadows. Maybe I can cut a Chancellor of the Annex and put it into the SB but I would then prefer to use this slot to add one more Whirlpool Rider as you suggested.


    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Some insist that FoW should only ever be in the side, as they dilute the main, I think this is mostly true. I've tried/tested FoW in different numbers in the main and side for ages. IME, FoW can definitely be useful in the main, however I don't think they're necessary.
    I know, FoW can dilute the main and this can increase the mulligans percentage but I have the feeling that I'm a bit more "protected". They work even better when I side-in the Disrupting Shoals. Are you suggesting to replace the Shoals with the Mindbreak Traps?

    Thank you for your answer and your suggestions. I'll take them into consideration.

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