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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #81

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'm even seeing Miracles dropping Rest in Peace in favor of Priests. I just think against the decks you really need him, he shines so well without having to open with Contagion - which will nuke your Bridges, too.

    I would gladly sacrifice my Bridges to kill a Priest and give me a chance to win via attack or Flayer. If that's the price I have to pay to not concede, sign me up.
    The Night HE Came Home.

  2. #82

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    1. Force = yes. I haven't been running Manaless for some time, but I can't see myself running anything but the blue version after running it exclusively for about 3 months. It's just the most likely version to win post-board in my mind, but I don't think it's as good in game1 compared to a fearless approach.
    Going the full 4 Force is definitely worth it IMO.


    3. I tested out Vengeful Pharoah a while back before Priest. It wasn't lacklustre, but it wasn't great either due to it's lack of synergy with Bridges...
    My end thought was to cut it and never look at it again. That said, now that Priest is a thing I'll give it another look as a SB option.
    Agree with both of these although I think I liked Vengeful Pharoah even less. For arguments sake, I'm going to highlight the card out of Death and Taxes as it's (probably) the most common place to expect Priest. If you can "get them" and kill a Containment Priest by mise-ing it off of a street wraith from dredge or phantasmagorian from hand in combat, sure it seems good and well worth the loss of a bridge or two, but not incredibly reliable. Once known, the pharoah can be played around by just attacking with other creatures leaving the priest back. I would treat Priest just like a RiP and try to counter it with FoW/ Shoal or kill with Contagion. The argument against this is Thalia. Im willing to accept the losses if they get both Thalia and Containment Priest, in that order, and me without a counterspell. Admittedly, my recent sample sizes are not incredibly large but I've found both the afformented creatures individually very beatable.

  3. #83

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    After rereading some of the previous comments, Phaorah does have its merits. The surprise factor when you do get them is not nothing. Also, even if it increases percentage points in a matchup by just a very very very small margin, it is still an increase. I still think I would want the 4 Contagion and 4 Disrupting Shoal before the first Pharoah.

    If not running the blue version, you have a few more slots to work with and can more easily fit some number of Phaorah in the 75.

  4. #84
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Sovelis View Post
    If not running the blue version, you have a few more slots to work with and can more easily fit some number of Phaorah in the 75.
    This . With that being said, I don't mind seeing a Thalia on the field. The beauty of this deck is that you don't necessarily need your spells to get the job done. The Priest, on the other hand, is a different beast entirely.

    And concerning Bridges, well, the same argument applies there. If killing your Bridges frees your spells, that's fine. Heck, it's the reason why I run a Progenitus in my 60. Even without any Bridges, it makes it safe to flip the library and lets me use Ichorids/Nether Shadows/Narcomoebas to combo off instead of the zombie tokens.
    Last edited by Echelon; 04-16-2015 at 03:02 AM.

  5. #85

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    There is actually a stark contrast between Containment Priest and Rest in Peace. At a glance, the two are congruent in that they both equally shut down any creatures coming out of your graveyard. However, Containment Priest suffers the problem of being much easier to deal with and does not exile your entire graveyard upon hitting the battlefield or exiling any future cards that hit your graveyard once dredged. This keeps us involved in the game, and any suitable answer for a creature card that is becoming more ubiquitous in control decks' sideboards should not be underestimated.

    If you're running the blue version of this deck, you need four Forces and four Shoals; that's the whole purpose of playing blue to begin with. Priest conveniently costs two to play, so Force and Shoal have a legitimate chance at countering this spell before it resolves as the counter package was tailored to stop Rest in Peace to begin with. Consider now that you have eight direct ways of stopping it from entering the battlefield. Adding in Contagion and Vengeful Pharaoh gives the deck another angle of defense to kill it once it enters the battlefield. I agree with the above analysis that you really need to have at least some number of Contagions and Pharaohs mixed together to combat Priest out of the sideboard, but I would lean towards three or four Contagion and two or three Pharaohs at most as a surprise removal piece from Phantasmagorian.

    Remember, the dynamic involved here is kind of similar to Contagion as it pertains to Pharaoh in that you need to draw a Contagion to be able to cast it. This is the same thing with Pharaoh - you'd prefer to have it in your hand. Contagion also requires another card to exile, while the Pharaoh would prefer to use Phantasmagorian as a surprise outlet. There are intricacies involved though that make Pharaoh a more dangerous card to opponents than Contagion - notably, the surprise factor with Phantasmagorian and the lack of interaction and inability to be countered. And even if an opponent rams creatures into the Pharaoh(s), they're dying, and keeping you alive to find the answers you need in time to stabilize. Contagion only operates from your hand and if it's drawn. The Pharaoh has applicability in both zones with the added dynamic with Phantasmagorian being a key bonus.

    If we're reaching the point (and it's extremely unlikely it will ever happen) that the omnipresence of Vengeful Pharaoh makes a dredged Phantasmagorian that much more dangerous because of what could be in your hand enough to stave off an attack, that would be awesome.

    Bottom line: If the card can legitimately stave off an attack if it is present in a graveyard pre-combat, then your giving yourself a chance to draw into Contagion(s) or counters to protect a Contagion to try and win. Now that Priest is everywhere, this card and Contagion got a whole lot better.
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  6. #86

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Way too many ifs and whens, dude. I know it's uncounterable, but it's also way too situational. If you're struggling with specifically Containment Priest, then I'd probably get Sickening Shoals besides Contagion instead...

  7. #87

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What sense does it make to play Sickening Shoal over Contagion against Priest when both kill Priest on the spot except one can diversify its targets while the other cannot?

    Also, I find the ability to cycle Street Wraith into a Pharaoh or Phantasmagorian dumping a Pharaoh far less situational than hoping to draw removal or a counter in your opening hand. You don't even have the option to truly mulligan and these two common scenarios seem far more likely to occur than simply relying on your draw to save you.

    This is used to augment the removal and counters, not nudge them out.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 04-16-2015 at 02:14 PM.
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  8. #88

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I see your point, I said besides though :-). I just find it clunky, but I'd love to hear results :-)

  9. #89

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Containment Priest suffers the problem of being much easier to deal with and does not exile your entire graveyard upon hitting the battlefield or exiling any future cards that hit your graveyard once dredged.
    ....
    the surprise factor with Phantasmagorian and the lack of interaction and inability to be countered. And even if an opponent rams creatures into the Pharaoh(s), they're dying, and keeping you alive to find the answers you need in time to stabilize.

    If we're reaching the point (and it's extremely unlikely it will ever happen) that the omnipresence of Vengeful Pharaoh makes a dredged Phantasmagorian that much more dangerous because of what could be in your hand enough to stave off an attack, that would be awesome.
    Bottom line: If the card can legitimately stave off an attack if it is present in a graveyard pre-combat, then your giving yourself a chance to draw into Contagion(s) or counters to protect a Contagion to try and win. Now that Priest is everywhere, this card and Contagion got a whole lot better.
    This was the pretty much the way I played it when I was testing it > Phantasmagorian trickery, dump Vengeful Pharoah when it suited me, kill something, and on the next turn I had the option of either dredging it into the yard again or drawing it instead to avoid killing any bridges I might somehow get into the yard.
    Most of the time, I dredged, as it was the obvious play, but whilst I genuinely like the card in casual games, it's non-synergy was a deal breaker in the RiP-heavy era a year ago.

    I DID find it really good at slowing opponents just routinely attacking with Tarmogoyf. That said, due to exling bridges, you're almost doomed to be playing out a grindy game I found out in the short time I tested it. I decked myself a few times from memory, due to being unable to reach 3 creatures for Dread Return.
    Given Containment Priest presents a different challenge to Rest In Peace, I think the game has changed somewhat, as Pharoah suddenly becomes more useful and less marginal. I own 2 or 3 from memory, so I'm gonna suit it up next time I take out Blue-Manaless. Let youse know how I go.

  10. #90

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    This was the pretty much the way I played it when I was testing it > Phantasmagorian trickery, dump Vengeful Pharoah when it suited me, kill something, and on the next turn I had the option of either dredging it into the yard again or drawing it instead to avoid killing any bridges I might somehow get into the yard.
    Most of the time, I dredged, as it was the obvious play, but whilst I genuinely like the card in casual games, it's non-synergy was a deal breaker in the RiP-heavy era a year ago.

    I DID find it really good at slowing opponents just routinely attacking with Tarmogoyf. That said, due to exling bridges, you're almost doomed to be playing out a grindy game I found out in the short time I tested it. I decked myself a few times from memory, due to being unable to reach 3 creatures for Dread Return.
    Given Containment Priest presents a different challenge to Rest In Peace, I think the game has changed somewhat, as Pharoah suddenly becomes more useful and less marginal. I own 2 or 3 from memory, so I'm gonna suit it up next time I take out Blue-Manaless. Let youse know how I go.
    Exactly. I think in Legacy right now at this moment with Containment Priest everywhere, Vengeful Pharaoh is incredibly good. Like I said, look at some winning lists and development in other boards. People are genuinely dumping Rest in Peace (or redundant copies of it) over Priest(s).

    We still have counters for it regardless, but this surprise, non-interactive form of removal is legitimate against an opponent confident in protecting his or her creature with counters.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 04-17-2015 at 04:15 PM.
    The Night HE Came Home.

  11. #91

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Cleaned up tonight with this list:

    4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
    4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
    4 [TO] Ichorid
    4 [B] Nether Shadow
    4 [FUT] Street Wraith
    1 [DKA] Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
    4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
    3 [AP] Whirlpool Rider
    3 [RAV] Shambling Shell
    1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

    4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
    4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
    4 [TSP] Dread Return
    4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
    4 [AL] Force of Will

    SB: 4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
    SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
    SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
    SB: 3 [M12] Vengeful Pharaoh
    SB: 2 [THS] Ashen Rider

    Match-ups:

    R1: 2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
    R2: 2-1 vs. Shardless BUG
    R3: 2-0 vs. 4c Counterbalance
    R4: 2-1 vs Jund
    R5: 0-2 vs TES
    R6: 2-0 vs Burn
    R7: 2-1 vs Rock
    R8: 2-0 vs OmniTell
    R9: 2-0 vs Belcher
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  12. #92
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  13. #93

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Congrats :-) I wish there were legacy tourneys as often around here.

  14. #94

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So what happens when opponents aren't completely stupid and just don't attack you with their Containment Priest either after you've Dredged Vengeful Pharaoh into your graveyard or revealed it in your 2nd game and lost? I think the rise of Containment Priest is fucking awesome, you can just put 4 Contagion and Sickening Shoal in your SB and actually have a fighting chance vs decks with White even if you don't want to play the blue MD - this card being good against Reanimator is like the best thing that has ever happened to us.

  15. #95

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I think we covered this before.

    I wouldn't expect someone to ram Priest in with a Pharaoh present. However, the ability to dump him or dredge into him to surprise an opponent is definitely a worthwhile option that avoids interaction.

    You could run whatever works for you, Shoals or Contagion works fine. I just see a lot of potential in the card and surprised several opponents with it already.
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  16. #96
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I went 3-1 with this list tonight:

    4 Golgari Grave Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Dryad Arbor
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return

    4 Unmask
    4 Nature's Claim
    2 Reverent Silence
    2 Crumble
    1 Bayou
    1 Windswept Heath
    1 Forest


    I lost round 1 vs Infect - Won game 1 easy, awkward hand game 2 went nowhere, and game 3 he mulled to 5, and I stripped his hand with Unmask and Therapy, but he slammed a RIP off the top. In retrospect, I should not have conceded. I think I had the win on the board, but it caught me off guard out of a UG deck and I tilted.

    Round 2 I beat UG homebrew ramp elves thing. Game 1 easy, game 2 through a turn 1 Scavenging Ooze.

    Round 3 I beat Elves in 3 games.

    Round 4 I beat MUD in 3 games.

    Every match I boarded out 2 Dread Return and 2 Shambling Shell for 4 Unmask.

    Won me some store credit towards those Forces!

    Some Thoughts:

    I came prepared for RIP, Leyline, and Cage. I wanted Contagion/Sickening Shoal all night, but I won those games anyways.

    This sideboard is hard.

    I love Unmask.

    I'm contemplating running 2 Fetchlands main. They are functionally Dryad Arbor 5 and 6, and it frees up 2 more SB slots to diversify my answers. I don't really like the blue version, though I trust you all that it is better.

    I like the version without a combo finish, because they don't know that.

    Vengeful Pharoah is cool tech. I will be trying it out!

    The new Primer is fantastic!

    This was my first tournament with this deck (I've been jamming Loam-Pox) It will not be my last.

  17. #97
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Interesting build. Though, you could still switch dredger number 16 for a Flayer of the Hatebound. Even if you don't use it to kill them on the spot, the recurring Ichorids either clear the way for more beats or (more likely) just burn your opponent where he stands in a couple of turns. It lets you circumvent tricky board states and enables sudden blow-outs when you get to cast a second DR on a Golgari Grave-Troll.

    I wonder though, would it not be better to run regular Forests over Dryad Arbor? Since Dryad Arbor has summoning sickness, can be Bolted/Plowed/Wastelanded? And after boarding you still only have 7 Forest in your deck, at best. That's far too few to reliably cast Reverent Silence/Nature's Claim/Crumble.

  18. #98
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    You're probably right about slotting in a Flayer.

    There was a great moment last night where MD Dryad Arbor allowed me to cast Therapy, Unmask, and Dread Return through Thorn of Amethyst.

  19. #99

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Cleaned up tonight with this list:

    1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

    SB: 4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
    SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
    SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
    SB: 3 [M12] Vengeful Pharaoh
    SB: 2 [THS] Ashen Rider
    The main is pretty much expected except Inkwell. How was it?
    Was the lack of black in the cost ever a problem? I would have expected a Black/Blue costed creature given your thoughts on the Mimeoplasm.

    I'd like to ask about your side. How was Pharaoh, and which decks did you side it in for?
    (I personally run some Mindbreak Trap for combo in this space)

  20. #100

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Played with 2 friends(D&T and MUD) last night ant tried "the blue version" for the first time, list below.
    Countering RIP, Thalia, Priest, Golum, Chalice... and from this moment, I will always play with blue.
    Notised that a Narcomoeba in hand can be a good thing.

    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Shambling Shell
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Serra Avatar

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    Sideboard
    3 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Disrupting Shoal
    4 Whirlpool Rider
    4 Force of Will

    ---
    Sideboard against D&T

    -3 Balustrade Spy
    -1 Serra Avatar
    -4 Chancellor of the Annex
    -1 Cabal Therapy
    -1 Nether Shadow
    -1 Serra Avatar
    -1 Phantasmagorian

    +4 Disrupting Shoal
    +4 Whirlpool Rider
    +4 Force of Will

    ---
    Last edited by BJeagle; 04-30-2015 at 03:34 AM.

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