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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1001
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    The first case concerned your Hollow One plan, when dealing with Leyline decks the 2nd case applies.

    Seems I need to spell out everything...

    As for the Leyline case, the odds of your opponent having a Leyline and you having the answer is about .41 * .46 so it'll work in roughly 19% of your games vs. decks w/ 4 Leylines if you optimize your entire SB for just that.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  2. #1002

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Against decks like Grixis Control that favor Surgical Extraction as SB GY hate, have you guys been holding up Street Wraiths for a couple of turns as Extraction protection, or just jamming it right away for speed? I've been holding it up, partially because it's not like Grixis Control has a fast clock anyway, but I was wondering what everyone else has been doing in games 2 and 3. They don't always target the dredger with Extraction, but I feel like the protection part of the time is worth more than speed against a slower opponent.

  3. #1003
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I do the same
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  4. #1004

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What do you guys think about Creeping Chill from Guilds of Ravnica?

    http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/creeping-chill/

    3B, Sorcery, UC:
    Deal 3 damage to each opponent and gain 3 life.
    When put into a graveyard from the library, deals 3 damage to each opponent and you gain 3 life.


    Worth an inclusion? 4x equals 12 damage plus 12 life.. thoughts?

  5. #1005
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'm going to test it regardles.

    Lotleth Giant just got spoiled. Our kill just got 1 DR shorter! When it EtB it deals 1 damage to your opponent for every creature card in your GY!
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  6. #1006

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlete View Post
    What do you guys think about Creeping Chill from Guilds of Ravnica?

    http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/creeping-chill/

    3B, Sorcery, UC:
    Deal 3 damage to each opponent and gain 3 life.
    When put into a graveyard from the library, deals 3 damage to each opponent and you gain 3 life.


    Worth an inclusion? 4x equals 12 damage plus 12 life.. thoughts?
    Could be funny with Noxious Revival.
    The Night HE Came Home.

  7. #1007
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Athlete left out a pretty important line of the card...


  8. #1008
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lotleth Giant just got spoiled. Our kill just got 1 DR shorter! When it EtB it deals 1 damage to your opponent for every creature card in your GY!
    Are you thinking of just putting it in place of a flex spot like Shambling Shell, in addition to the existing Dread Return targets? Looking at it without too much thought, I assume you still keep your Flayer of the Hatebound and Balustrade Spy/Whirlpool Rider.

  9. #1009
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Nope, Flayer becomes Lol Giant
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  10. #1010

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Athlete left out a pretty important line of the card...

    you are correct - forgot the "exile it" clause ;)

  11. #1011

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Fire off your Street Wraiths sooner than later; better opponents are usually holding their narrow hate for better stuff than dredgers.

    Giant smooths out the combo, and it can be pitched to Ichorid in a pinch. Upgrade.

    Creeping Chill is a nice addition. It's counterproof, which pans nicely with the philosophy of the deck. It helps fight through resolved priests and cages. The life gain improves the coinflip we have with Burn. It just might be a staple in the deck. Time will tell.

    Still waiting for MtG to print stuff to replace the garbage: Pervert Spy/Jizzelback/Vaporwaver, Netherpoop, and Shamblestupid.

  12. #1012

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Fire off your Street Wraiths sooner than later; better opponents are usually holding their narrow hate for better stuff than dredgers.

    Giant smooths out the combo, and it can be pitched to Ichorid in a pinch. Upgrade.

    Creeping Chill is a nice addition. It's counterproof, which pans nicely with the philosophy of the deck. It helps fight through resolved priests and cages. The life gain improves the coinflip we have with Burn. It just might be a staple in the deck. Time will tell.

    Still waiting for MtG to print stuff to replace the garbage: Pervert Spy/Jizzelback/Vaporwaver, Netherpoop, and Shamblestupid.

  13. #1013

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'm just wondering about the mid-game strength of Flayer and Lotleth Giant. It's true what's been said about Giant being better than Flayer in ways, but it's nice to Dread Return a Flayer mid-game even without Balustrade Spy or Whirlpool Rider and knowing it can be lethal in a couple of turns with creatures coming back from the graveyard, while Giant will be a one-shot less than lethal if you haven't dumped your library.

    Another point is while it's true that it requires one less Dread Return, Flayer often does that anyway now, with returning Prized Amalgams hitting for lethal with just the library dump + Flayer.

    Giant could end up being better, but I'm just weighing it out.

  14. #1014

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I still think Giant is better mid-game than Flayer. The damage will be higher with the Giant, and Flayer will need to play catchup using other creatures. Giant also has a better bod.

    Also, you could drop Giant through a S&T, while Flayer is just bad.

  15. #1015

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Lotleth Giant looks strictly better than Flayer of the Hatebound, running it in multiples since it feeds Ichorid is also something worth thinking about considering it may very well be Balustrade Spy and a kill condition in one card by the time you Dread Return - removing a weakness vs Reanimate - and it also pitches to Sickenning Shoal for 7, killing any creature in the format.

    I am definitely buying a set of them, it may be a little slower than Balustrade Spy and Flayer of the Hatebound but you can combine it with creature damage, Dread Return it multiple times or wait to fill up the graveyard. Furthermore with Creeping Chill the deck may be better positioned to beat down the opponent.

    At worst, it lets us play 2x of the card for redundancy vs Tormodís Crypt effects and the freedom to feed one to Ichorid.

  16. #1016

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Pleasantly surprised. This is probably the most help that would reasonably be expected for manaless without a card actually having a free alternative cost or the dredge mechanic.

    I tend to agree with folks about the inclusion of Lotleth Giant over Flayer. Whatever cuts down on the number of mechanics, or the delay time of triggers to resolve, the better.

    Creeping Chill, while completely different, seems like it could be a 4 for 4 swap with whatever folks were using to plug the G. Probe hole. It is too cute, but it's functional.

    I had previously been on 4 Chancellor MD, 4 FoW & 2 D.Shoal SB. Just tooling around, and especially with DRS gone, that doesn't seem optimal, that sort of disruption. What are folks running in SBs these days? Punting around this for the moment. Janky, but versatile?

    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Ashen Rider
    3 Contagion
    3 Unmask

  17. #1017

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Creeping Chill has been super low impact, I donít think removing creatures for the Nether Shadow trigger is worth it. I am starting to think that slot should just be some random black creature to feed Ichorid like Faerie Macabre or Vengeful Pharaoh.

  18. #1018

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Lotleth Giant looks amazing and makes me want to consider Manaless over the mana version.

    In LED Dredge, I find opponents save Extraction for win conditions instead of dredgers, so holding Street Wraith may not help. The longer you wait, the more likely they can cantrip into disruption. It seems better to just go aggressive and try to win first vs targeted hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    How do you get it out? Show and Tell tech vs Emrakul? If they drop Omni-combo, it does nothing. If they drop Griselbrand, you draw/dredge back up to 7 cards on your turn, you miss a discard step, and they can still attack and draw infinity. The 4th Ashen Rider seems better.

  19. #1019
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So here's what my 60'll look like the next time I get to test it:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Creeping Chill (although these could turn back into Chancellors if they fail to impress)
    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Lotleth Giant
    1 Progenitus

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  20. #1020
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Echelon, I'm quite agree with your version (I prefer Whirlpool Rider than Balustrade Spy because of SB), and Creeping Chill has to be tested.

    What's your SB actually? Because of the U/b Death's Shadow, I switched contagion by Sickening Shoal

    my SB :

    4 Force of Will
    4 Disrupting Shoal
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Sickening Shoal

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