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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1021
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    For now it's the same old SB as always:

    3 Vengeful Pharaoh
    4 Contagion
    4 Unmask
    4 Mindbreak Trap

    It probably needs an overhaul.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  2. #1022
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    If you have 2 Vengeful Pharaoh in the graveyard and your opponent attacks with 1 creature.
    1 or 2 Vengeful Pharaoh will go on top of your library ?
    (target still available for the 2nd pharaoh?)

  3. #1023
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    If you have 2 Vengeful Pharaoh in the graveyard and your opponent attacks with 1 creature.
    1 or 2 Vengeful Pharaoh will go on top of your library ?
    (target still available for the 2nd pharaoh?)
    Each Pharaoh that succesfully resolves its trigger gets put on top of your Library. No legal targets, no going back to the library.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  4. #1024

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I think a 2/2 split of Spy/Giant is better, it's more redundant and lessens the impact of Surgical Extraction on Spy.

  5. #1025
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    After the first tests I will adopt :




    The creeping chill make more pressure against opponant, and we can win 1 turn because of the 3-6-9 damages done when we have to count on the aggro plan. Thanks to the 2nd effect (gain of life), we can have 1 turn more before the opponent letal, witch can be enough sometime

    Some match-up are increased :
    Ad nauseam: decrease opponent life makes Ad nauseam worse. Increase our life make (a little bit) harder the tendrils of agony
    burn:It's not a deck often played, but it's good to know that the lifegain increase this match-up.



    For lothleth giant, it's clearly better than Flayer of the Hatebound. Everything was said before, it's a kill just got 1 DR shorter.

  6. #1026
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi,

    as everyone know, the ban of deathrite shaman + gitaxian probe the 06/07/18 was a revolution for the legacy, but what's the impact for Manaless dredge ?
    After 2 mounths, the metagame is still not fixed, but we can have the first feedback. I have studied the top 8 lists done since the ban (2 months), and you will find under my comments. The source of top8 list is the website MTGtop8. The aim is absolutely not to say "my list is better than your", the aim is to provide as much as possible an objectif point of view of the actual metagame and discuss about our best strategy against.

    Metagame of the last 2 months, based on the different top8 on tournament. 649 deck repertoried :

    Aggro 42 %
    Death & Taxes 51 8 %
    Death's Shadow 42 6 %
    Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
    Grixis Delver 27 4 %
    Dragon Stompy 16 2 %
    Goblins 16 2 %
    UR Delver 15 2 %
    Canadian Threshold 14 2 %
    Burn 14 2 %
    Merfolk 9 1 %
    Maverick 9 1 %
    Affinity 9 1 %
    Zombi Bombardment 7 1 %
    Slivers 4 1 %
    Delver BUG / 4c 3 0 %
    Jund 3 0 %
    MUD 1 0 %
    Bant 1 0 %
    Patriot Aggro 1 0 %
    Other - Aggro 3 0 %

    Control 31 %
    Grixis Control 50 8 %
    UWx Control 45 7 %
    Lands 32 5 %
    Stoneblade 32 5 %
    Loam 20 3 %
    Pox 6 1 %
    BUG Midrange 5 1 %
    Nic Fit 3 0 %
    Tezzeret Control 3 0 %
    Landstill 2 0 %
    BUG Control 2 0 %
    4c Control 1 0 %
    Stax 1 0 %
    Other - Control 1 0 %

    Combo 27 %
    Show and Tell 43 7 %
    Storm 27 4 %
    Reanimator 23 4 %
    Dark Depths 21 3 %
    Elves 14 2 %
    Dredge 12 2 %
    Cloudpost Ramp 9 1 %
    Infect 9 1 %
    Aluren 4 1 %
    Enchantress 3 0 %
    Mono Red Sneak Attack 2 0 %
    Belcher 1 0 %
    Painter 1 0 %
    Food Griffin 1 0 %
    Shoal Infect 1 0 %
    Bomberman 1 0 %


    First comments of the metagame :

    - The ratio aggro/control/combo is +/- still the same. The domination of combo deck (reanimator/storm) has players though in july is not.
    - Grixis is not dead ! Grixis (aggro) still exist but not as stong as before. Grixis (control) is a DTB.
    - A new challenger appears : Death-shadow
    - The decks already in the DTB/T1 list witch have not been modified with the ban are now in the DTB list : Death & Taxes, UWx Control, Show and Tell



    To make the analyse for manaless impact, I just take in count the decks represented more than 3% :

    Aggro 42 %
    Death & Taxes 51 8 %
    Death's Shadow 42 6 %
    Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
    Grixis Delver 27 4 %

    Control 31 %
    Grixis Control 50 8 %
    UWx Control 45 7 %
    Lands 32 5 %
    Stoneblade 32 5 %
    Loam 20 3 %

    Combo 27 %
    Show and Tell 43 7 %
    Storm 27 4 %
    Reanimator 23 4 %
    Dark Depths 21 3 %




    Death & Taxes 51 8 %
    They usually play main deck 2 Recruiter of the Guard + 1 solution as Remorseful Cleric/Containment Priest
    Post-side, they add : 2 Containment Priest, 2 Rest in Peace and 1-2 Surgical Extraction
    Grafdigger's Cage is not played.
    solution proposed: Their threats cost 2, the classic counter pack force of will + Disrupting Shoal is really good. Contagion and Sickening Shoal can help us.


    Death's Shadow 42 6 %
    Be careful when you use phantasmagorian to have 2 dredger or 1 dredge +1 street wraith . They have 2 Reanimate main deck and you can lose alone the 1st round....
    Post-side, they add usually 3 Surgical Extraction . No Grafdigger's Cage, extremely rarely Faerie Macabre
    solution proposed: you can try force of will but with 10 counter against and 8 solution to find them I think it is useless. Their graveyard hate is not strong, we are not hard impacted. They dont have many creatures, the game is longer, the game is better for us. Vengeful Pharaoh seems very good to beat them. Contagion and Sickening Shoal also, but with the risk to be countered. The gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. I have not practice enought this match-up but I'm convience It's favorable for us.


    Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
    The faster you are, the better it is.
    solution proposed:Post-side, it's easy : they enter 4 Leyline of the Void and you concede or they (not usualy) play Faerie Macabre. I don't like Vengeful Pharaoh in this match-up because it will remove the Bridge from Below you have. It's only my point of view, and you can play them. I prefer to be aggressive, but still block their creature to create as mutch as possible 2/2 tokens. Contagion and Sickening Shoal are really good. The new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us: They lost a lot of life with their lands, and the damage from Creeping Chill help us to be faster.


    Grixis Delver 27 4 %
    You have to be very aggressive. Don't count too much on Bridge from Below because they can sacrifice token to remove them main deck.
    solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 0-1 Grafdigger's Cage and 2-3 Surgical Extraction. Contagion is adapted against delver of secrets and young pyromancer


    Grixis Control 50 8 %
    Nothing 1st game, should be a formality.
    solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction, and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage . Counter plan is not the best because they can cast surgical from the graveyard after. I propose to play
    faerie macabre (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction to remove their own.


    UWx Control 45 7 %
    1st game should be OK without problem, but.....
    solution proposed: As Grixis control,Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction, and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage . But they should also have access to 0-2 Containment Priest (1.1 average). I was surprised not to see rest in peace in the SB list.
    It's hard to propose a "good" solution....
    faerie macabre (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction to remove their own, or counter pack force of will + Disrupting Shoal can be options. Also go as fast as possible without big modification is an option


    Lands 32 5 %
    horrible, they have access to 1 bojuka bog on 1st game, wasteland it, then life from the loam and play it again. With 4 gamble and 4 crop rotation, this mean they have 9 game breaker main deck !
    solution proposed: They have solution main deck against us, the good news is they will not enter more graveyard hate. Just 4 Sphere of Resistance to prevent us from playing cards. faerie macabre on bojuka or Surgical Extraction on the 1 of the 3 cards is a good option. If you are afraid of token 20/20 flying marit lage, you can try Snapback but I'm convicied the 1st options are better. Last detail, the gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. Their creature is 20/20, this mean if your gain 3 life you will be alive at least one turn more, witch could be enought to have a blocker on board (Narcomoeba), or just win on your turn. This is priceless ! Vengeful Pharaoh seems a very nice option since we can gain life.


    Stoneblade 32 5 %
    As grixis control, 1st game, should be a formality.
    solution proposed: post-side the games are different. They have acces to 1-2 Containment Priest and as the other control decks a pack of 3 Surgical Extraction, and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage. faerie macabre (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction to remove their own, or counter pack force of will + Disrupting Shoal can be options. I have not seen any rest in peace in the SB.


    Loam 20 3 %
    The 1st will clearly depend on the build of your opponent. Some are playing 2 Scavenging Ooze MD, some 1 bojuka bog, some nothing. they play 2-4 Green Sun's Zenith and 4 Knight of the Reliquary and sometime Crop Rotation. Just be the fastest as you can and hope you are on a good day ....
    solution proposed: Post side, most of them will enter Leyline of the Void, witch mean there is nothing to do exept concede. The best is to kill their creature before they are ruining our graveyard : Sickening Shoal is the best, Contagion is good but can be to small.


    Show and Tell 43 7 %
    The first will depend who will go faster. Having a Whirlpool Rider or better a Balustrade Spy in hand is the best when they play show and tell, and hope you can win on next turn. With Balustrade Spy you must have 1 progenitus or equivalent in your main deck for this stategy.
    solution proposed: Post side, you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage, sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. Force of will is your best friend , and you would like to have Chancellor of the Annex in hand to earn a little bit of time. Disrupting Shoal is useless , nothing cost 2.
    The faster will be the better.


    Storm 27 4 %
    nothing special on 1st, the faster will win.
    solution proposed: Post side (as show and tell), you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage, sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. the counters will be your firends force of will, Disrupting Shoal and Mindbreak Trap. Contrary to show and tell deck, Disrupting Shoal is an valable option, because you can counter an Infernal Tutor


    Reanimator 23 4 %
    He 's faster than you, 1st should be lost.
    solution proposed: As combo deck , no graveyard hate or 1-2 cards maximum. Your best option is Leyline of the Void, faerie macabre or Surgical Extraction. you can also try force of will but it's worse than the others. An option also is Snapback.


    Dark Depths 21 3 %
    they are playing main deck 1 bojuka bog, 3-4 Crop Rotation , 0-2 Expedition Map..... it's hard but can cast it only one time (no life from the loam). So I never activate phantasmagorian before to be sure.
    solution proposed: they will enter 2-3 Surgical Extraction. They cannot make a loop for bojuka bog, so the effect will be one time. I just enter 4 force of will, and Snapback is an option, but they can protect their 20/20 token. Same comment than Lands, the gainlife of Creeping Chill is a good news for us. Vengeful Pharaoh seems a very nice option since we can gain life.

  7. #1027

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    Lands 32 5 %
    horrible, they have access to 1 bojuka bog on 1st game, wasteland it, then life from the loam and play it again. With 4 gamble and 4 crop rotation, this mean they have 9 game breaker main deck !
    solution proposed: They have solution main deck against us, the good news is they will not enter more graveyard hate. Just 4 Sphere of Resistance to prevent us from playing cards. faerie macabre on bojuka or Surgical Extraction on the 1 of the 3 cards is a good option. If you are afraid of token 20/20 flying marit lage, you can try Snapback but I'm convicied the 1st options are better. Last detail, the gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. Their creature is 20/20, this mean if your gain 3 life you will be alive at least one turn more, witch could be enought to have a blocker on board (Narcomoeba), or just win on your turn. This is priceless ! Vengeful Pharaoh seems a very nice option since we can gain life.
    Great write up! Nicely done! But a small remark concerning your solution for Lands: Pharaoh is pretty useless against Marit as she is indestructible.

  8. #1028
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    Hi,

    as everyone know, the ban of deathrite shaman + gitaxian probe the 06/07/18 was a revolution for the legacy, but what's the impact for Manaless dredge ?
    After 2 mounths, the metagame is still not fixed, but we can have the first feedback. I have studied the top 8 lists done since the ban (2 months), and you will find under my comments. The source of top8 list is the website MTGtop8. The aim is absolutely not to say "my list is better than your", the aim is to provide as much as possible an objectif point of view of the actual metagame and discuss about our best strategy against.

    Metagame of the last 2 months, based on the different top8 on tournament. 649 deck repertoried :

    Aggro 42 %
    Death & Taxes 51 8 %
    Death's Shadow 42 6 %
    Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
    Grixis Delver 27 4 %
    Dragon Stompy 16 2 %
    Goblins 16 2 %
    UR Delver 15 2 %
    Canadian Threshold 14 2 %
    Burn 14 2 %
    Merfolk 9 1 %
    Maverick 9 1 %
    Affinity 9 1 %
    Zombi Bombardment 7 1 %
    Slivers 4 1 %
    Delver BUG / 4c 3 0 %
    Jund 3 0 %
    MUD 1 0 %
    Bant 1 0 %
    Patriot Aggro 1 0 %
    Other - Aggro 3 0 %

    Control 31 %
    Grixis Control 50 8 %
    UWx Control 45 7 %
    Lands 32 5 %
    Stoneblade 32 5 %
    Loam 20 3 %
    Pox 6 1 %
    BUG Midrange 5 1 %
    Nic Fit 3 0 %
    Tezzeret Control 3 0 %
    Landstill 2 0 %
    BUG Control 2 0 %
    4c Control 1 0 %
    Stax 1 0 %
    Other - Control 1 0 %

    Combo 27 %
    Show and Tell 43 7 %
    Storm 27 4 %
    Reanimator 23 4 %
    Dark Depths 21 3 %
    Elves 14 2 %
    Dredge 12 2 %
    Cloudpost Ramp 9 1 %
    Infect 9 1 %
    Aluren 4 1 %
    Enchantress 3 0 %
    Mono Red Sneak Attack 2 0 %
    Belcher 1 0 %
    Painter 1 0 %
    Food Griffin 1 0 %
    Shoal Infect 1 0 %
    Bomberman 1 0 %


    First comments of the metagame :

    - The ratio aggro/control/combo is +/- still the same. The domination of combo deck (reanimator/storm) has players though in july is not.
    - Grixis is not dead ! Grixis (aggro) still exist but not as stong as before. Grixis (control) is a DTB.
    - A new challenger appears : Death-shadow
    - The decks already in the DTB/T1 list witch have not been modified with the ban are now in the DTB list : Death & Taxes, UWx Control, Show and Tell



    To make the analyse for manaless impact, I just take in count the decks represented more than 3% :

    Aggro 42 %
    Death & Taxes 51 8 %
    Death's Shadow 42 6 %
    Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
    Grixis Delver 27 4 %

    Control 31 %
    Grixis Control 50 8 %
    UWx Control 45 7 %
    Lands 32 5 %
    Stoneblade 32 5 %
    Loam 20 3 %

    Combo 27 %
    Show and Tell 43 7 %
    Storm 27 4 %
    Reanimator 23 4 %
    Dark Depths 21 3 %




    Death & Taxes 51 8 %
    They usually play main deck 2 Recruiter of the Guard + 1 solution as Remorseful Cleric/Containment Priest
    Post-side, they add : 2 Containment Priest, 2 Rest in Peace and 1-2 Surgical Extraction
    Grafdigger's Cage is not played.
    solution proposed: Their threats cost 2, the classic counter pack force of will + Disrupting Shoal is really good. Contagion and Sickening Shoal can help us.


    Death's Shadow 42 6 %
    Be careful when you use phantasmagorian to have 2 dredger or 1 dredge +1 street wraith . They have 2 Reanimate main deck and you can lose alone the 1st round....
    Post-side, they add usually 3 Surgical Extraction . No Grafdigger's Cage, extremely rarely Faerie Macabre
    solution proposed: you can try force of will but with 10 counter against and 8 solution to find them I think it is useless. Their graveyard hate is not strong, we are not hard impacted. They dont have many creatures, the game is longer, the game is better for us. Vengeful Pharaoh seems very good to beat them. Contagion and Sickening Shoal also, but with the risk to be countered. The gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. I have not practice enought this match-up but I'm convience It's favorable for us.


    Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
    The faster you are, the better it is.
    solution proposed:Post-side, it's easy : they enter 4 Leyline of the Void and you concede or they (not usualy) play Faerie Macabre. I don't like Vengeful Pharaoh in this match-up because it will remove the Bridge from Below you have. It's only my point of view, and you can play them. I prefer to be aggressive, but still block their creature to create as mutch as possible 2/2 tokens. Contagion and Sickening Shoal are really good. The new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us: They lost a lot of life with their lands, and the damage from Creeping Chill help us to be faster.


    Grixis Delver 27 4 %
    You have to be very aggressive. Don't count too much on Bridge from Below because they can sacrifice token to remove them main deck.
    solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 0-1 Grafdigger's Cage and 2-3 Surgical Extraction. Contagion is adapted against delver of secrets and young pyromancer


    Grixis Control 50 8 %
    Nothing 1st game, should be a formality.
    solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction, and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage . Counter plan is not the best because they can cast surgical from the graveyard after. I propose to play
    faerie macabre (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction to remove their own.


    UWx Control 45 7 %
    1st game should be OK without problem, but.....
    solution proposed: As Grixis control,Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction, and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage . But they should also have access to 0-2 Containment Priest (1.1 average). I was surprised not to see rest in peace in the SB list.
    It's hard to propose a "good" solution....
    faerie macabre (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction to remove their own, or counter pack force of will + Disrupting Shoal can be options. Also go as fast as possible without big modification is an option


    Lands 32 5 %
    horrible, they have access to 1 bojuka bog on 1st game, wasteland it, then life from the loam and play it again. With 4 gamble and 4 crop rotation, this mean they have 9 game breaker main deck !
    solution proposed: They have solution main deck against us, the good news is they will not enter more graveyard hate. Just 4 Sphere of Resistance to prevent us from playing cards. faerie macabre on bojuka or Surgical Extraction on the 1 of the 3 cards is a good option. If you are afraid of token 20/20 flying marit lage, you can try Snapback but I'm convicied the 1st options are better. Last detail, the gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. Their creature is 20/20, this mean if your gain 3 life you will be alive at least one turn more, witch could be enought to have a blocker on board (Narcomoeba), or just win on your turn. This is priceless ! Vengeful Pharaoh seems a very nice option since we can gain life.


    Stoneblade 32 5 %
    As grixis control, 1st game, should be a formality.
    solution proposed: post-side the games are different. They have acces to 1-2 Containment Priest and as the other control decks a pack of 3 Surgical Extraction, and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage. faerie macabre (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction to remove their own, or counter pack force of will + Disrupting Shoal can be options. I have not seen any rest in peace in the SB.


    Loam 20 3 %
    The 1st will clearly depend on the build of your opponent. Some are playing 2 Scavenging Ooze MD, some 1 bojuka bog, some nothing. they play 2-4 Green Sun's Zenith and 4 Knight of the Reliquary and sometime Crop Rotation. Just be the fastest as you can and hope you are on a good day ....
    solution proposed: Post side, most of them will enter Leyline of the Void, witch mean there is nothing to do exept concede. The best is to kill their creature before they are ruining our graveyard : Sickening Shoal is the best, Contagion is good but can be to small.


    Show and Tell 43 7 %
    The first will depend who will go faster. Having a Whirlpool Rider or better a Balustrade Spy in hand is the best when they play show and tell, and hope you can win on next turn. With Balustrade Spy you must have 1 progenitus or equivalent in your main deck for this stategy.
    solution proposed: Post side, you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage, sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. Force of will is your best friend , and you would like to have Chancellor of the Annex in hand to earn a little bit of time. Disrupting Shoal is useless , nothing cost 2.
    The faster will be the better.


    Storm 27 4 %
    nothing special on 1st, the faster will win.
    solution proposed: Post side (as show and tell), you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage, sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. the counters will be your firends force of will, Disrupting Shoal and Mindbreak Trap. Contrary to show and tell deck, Disrupting Shoal is an valable option, because you can counter an Infernal Tutor


    Reanimator 23 4 %
    He 's faster than you, 1st should be lost.
    solution proposed: As combo deck , no graveyard hate or 1-2 cards maximum. Your best option is Leyline of the Void, faerie macabre or Surgical Extraction. you can also try force of will but it's worse than the others. An option also is Snapback.


    Dark Depths 21 3 %
    they are playing main deck 1 bojuka bog, 3-4 Crop Rotation , 0-2 Expedition Map..... it's hard but can cast it only one time (no life from the loam). So I never activate phantasmagorian before to be sure.
    solution proposed: they will enter 2-3 Surgical Extraction. They cannot make a loop for bojuka bog, so the effect will be one time. I just enter 4 force of will, and Snapback is an option, but they can protect their 20/20 token. Same comment than Lands, the gainlife of Creeping Chill is a good news for us. Vengeful Pharaoh seems a very nice option since we can gain life.
    great data. can you post all the non-manaless info in a new thread in the community thread? i think it would be really a great resource for the entire site.
    -rob

  9. #1029

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    Death & Taxes 51 8 %
    They usually play main deck 2 Recruiter of the Guard + 1 solution as Remorseful Cleric/Containment Priest
    Post-side, they add : 2 Containment Priest, 2 Rest in Peace and 1-2 Surgical Extraction
    Grafdigger's Cage is not played.
    solution proposed: Their threats cost 2, the classic counter pack force of will + Disrupting Shoal is really good. Contagion and Sickening Shoal can help us.
    Very intresting data overal, even when I'm not playing manaless myself.

    Don't forget that D&T got Thalia main deck to mess up the combo and disruption plan. Playing D&T vs. Manaless I always eager to drop Thalia asap and then find a Batterskull (and now also Cleric) to stabilize. I think you should try to hit for Thalia with your discards and then try to swarm-up with Ichorids and Birdges. The counter pack out of the SB should be more usefull then the removal as most D&T only have 1 Cavern and proberly board out Vials, as your counter pack also hits Thalia and your removal won't.

  10. #1030

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Has anyone played this recently? Curious if Creeping Chill has been worth it.

  11. #1031
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Played it yesterday.

    It mostly makes the deck a lirtle more aggressive. I like it. Not switching it out just yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  12. #1032

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Played it yesterday.

    It mostly makes the deck a lirtle more aggressive. I like it. Not switching it out just yet.
    Have a decklist to share? Did you include Lotleth Giant as well?

    And embarrassing question- Lotleth Giant counts itself when being returned to play from the graveyard, just as Golgari Grave-Troll does, correct?

  13. #1033

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Have a decklist to share? Did you include Lotleth Giant as well?

    And embarrassing question- Lotleth Giant counts itself when being returned to play from the graveyard, just as Golgari Grave-Troll does, correct?
    For the second question, unfortunately the answer is no - Lotleth Giant's trigger is an etb trigger, which means it only goes on the stack once it's fully left the graveyard and entered the battlefield; for GGT, it's an "as it enters" check, so it has to derive that information _before_ it would enter the battlefield. (One way to see the difference is to consider if GGT were a regular ETB - in that case, it'd just simply die before the ETB to put counters would resolve!)

  14. #1034
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @ahg113: It was on the previous page

    Only played a few games. Won all through beatdown, so I didn't DR the Giant yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  15. #1035

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Well it seems they've finally given us some new cards to ponder, and taken away one of our first choice cards in Probe.
    I'm currently using Chancellor in that slot, but I'm testing with a deck running 4x Bloodghast in the probe slot, with 3x Dakmor Salvage replacing Shambling Shell.
    So far I like it, mainly cos I hate taxing effects a LOT.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Has anyone played this recently? Curious if Creeping Chill has been worth it.
    I've been playing Manaless with a few different cards lately at my local. CC is cute, but a marginal choice IMHO. I'd pop this card in the win-more category.
    Reason being, Manaless Dredge as a combo deck is regularly too slow, and now with Probe gone, our speed and consistency has taken a hit.
    CC lessens the harm of cards like Street Wraith, but it doesn't decrease our time-to-kill.
    This card dilutes our deck, so stuff like Nether Shadow takes longer to hit the field, so our combo may take longer to assemble.
    I'm gonna keep playing with it for now, but I'll probably end up cutting it.

    RE: Lotleth Giant VS Flayer of the Hatebound.
    I have to be honest on this one - I'm not sure it's better, even if we are running Balustrade Spy.
    In my Spy build, these cards both play out the same way, you win that turn, even if GGT gets exiled. SO really, which art do you like better?
    The main difference for me, Icky works with Giant.
    I've done a fair bit of testing with this one with different targets (Spy, Whirpool Rider, Griselbrand etc.), and I'm yet to make up my mind.

    Anyone playing with anything else from the new set here in Manaless?
    Last edited by slave; 10-28-2018 at 03:04 AM.

  16. #1036
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Has anyone played this recently? Curious if Creeping Chill has been worth it.
    I have been playing with it over chancellor and it has been better than I expected so far. The extra damage makes us more aggressive as Echelon said. Each cc is one less ichorid we need to connect with. It also shortens the clock and make giant a real threat without having to combo out. On the other hand the life gain has mattered more than I thought it would. Not so much because of street wraith but because being at more than 20 means marit lage can't just kill you and being at more than 22 means Emmy and Gris can't get you in the sneak show match up.

  17. #1037

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What's really funny is that Noxious Revival turns into a de facto Lightning Bolt with Creeping Chill.
    The Night HE Came Home.

  18. #1038
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    What's really funny is that Noxious Revival turns into a de facto Lightning Bolt with Creeping Chill.
    Also true for the ones that get stuck in hand because you can pitch them to phanta. I have been playing revival out of the board it might be enough to consider main decking. I don't think we want more than 2 though.

  19. #1039

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    Also true for the ones that get stuck in hand because you can pitch them to phanta. I have been playing revival out of the board it might be enough to consider main decking. I don't think we want more than 2 though.
    I think if you're running Chill, then playing a full set is fine. I mean, Noxious Revival is a good enough card that it has a wider application and utility than most other cards used in its slot, so it's worth entertaining. Remember, mulliganing isn't something this deck wants to do often, if at all, so it's something to consider (meaning playing a full set to hit them in the opener).

    Creeping Chill is absolutely disgusting against Shadow, for what it's worth. They're already driving their life total into oblivion, or low enough where this card becomes extremely relevant.
    The Night HE Came Home.

  20. #1040
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    The real question is how to fit 4 Chill and 4 Noxious along with the FoWs...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
    :16: - (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
    Legendary Creature - Horror
    Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
    Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
    Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
    Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
    13/13

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