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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1061

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Why care about how others perceive your deck? You do you man. And enjoy being underestimated XD.
    Hear, hear!

    FWIW, I don't know if there was much underestimating going on at the LGS last night. I kept hearing random people around the room saying "manaless dredge!" like a sort of "hide your wives and your daughters, grab your pitchforks, say your prayers, the Beast is back" reaction. I think I need more practice before that reaction is really justified, though...

  2. #1062
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Lav Dafka View Post
    I kept hearing random people around the room saying "manaless dredge!" like a sort of "hide your wives and your daughters, grab your pitchforks, say your prayers, the Beast is back" reaction.
    Now that's a proper reaction
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  3. #1063
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    3–0 at the local yesterday running this list:

    4x GGT
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    4x Golgari Thug
    2x Shambling Shell

    4x Nether Shadow
    4x Ichorid
    4x Narcomoeba
    4x Prized Amalgam

    4x Phantasmagorian
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Chancellor of the Annex
    4x Cabal Therapy
    4x Bridge from Below

    3x Dread Return
    3x Whirlpool Rider
    1x Lotleth Giant

    3x Lion's Eye Diamond. Because I'm a madman and they were lying around.

    SB:

    4x Force of Will
    3x Leyline of the Void
    2x Disrupting Shoal
    2x Mindbreak Trap
    1x Ashen Rider
    1x Dakmor Salvage (should be Leyline #4; I used to have Balustrade Spies in the deck)
    2x Faithless Looting

    Lost a game off of BReanimator but somehow managed to pull through. Leyline is a good card. LED felt great, too; opened some interesting lines in testing (none of which actually happened in the tournament) with hands like, LED, Street Wraith, Stinkweed Imp/Golgari Thug, Other Dredger, etc. Can get us a flying "deathtouch" chump or a Narco recycler and fill our 'yard at the same time. I also found the opportunity to start the engines on the play was relevant, though it didn't come up more than once. For what it's worth, it also gives us an opportunity to actually pay our taxes.

    G2 against Reanimator, having Creeping Chill might've saved me. My opponent brought himself down to 4 after a Reanimate on Griselbrand and a Bargain activation, but then he landed Elesh Norn and blew up all my stuff. Curious as to how people are finding Chill now that it's been on the block for a bit.

    I'm pretty inexperienced with this deck (I've played a fair bit of LED-Loot Dredge), and I was wondering whether anyone had sideboarding suggestions. I get that we need Forces and Leylines against stuff like Reanimator, but in my other matchups I didn't find there was anything I wanted to cut. Never brought in the Shoals or the Mindbreak Traps. And yeah, I know that there are some experimental slots in my 'board to go with the Diamonds, but as as someone who's never picked up Contagions, I don't really know what else I should run. (For that matter, I'm not sure how often or when I'd want Contagion except against D&T.) All in all, Reanimator was the only matchup where I felt the need to 'board in anything, though I'll admit that I really lucked out in game 2, round 3 against Burn. He hammered me to one life, then sat and topdecked lands for a few turns while the horde (rather festively) snowballed.

    EDIT: And Merry Christmas Pregame, everybody!
    Last edited by Ronald Deuce; 01-01-2019 at 02:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  4. #1064

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post

    3x Lion's Eye Diamond. Because I'm a madman and they were lying around.


    2x Faithless Looting

    !
    Pretty insane!

  5. #1065

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I decided to pick up Magic again after a 7 year absence. When I left, Manaless was just making a splash. I thought it was pretty cool. Upon returning, I decided to run it. I have been working on a conventional build, tweaking things to my playstyle. However, I have looked through a lot of the cards available to us, and I was thinking that a red build could be interesting.

    4 Chancellor of the Forge
    4 Bedlam Reveler
    4 Blazing Shoal
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp

    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian

    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return

    So, what we lose from this build: fewer Ichorid targets, less consistency in dredging through the entire deck compared to Balustrade Spy/Griselbrand, no counterspells (though the board could include enough to flip this to a blue package).

    What is gained: the potential to start with a creature on board, the potential to blow out the opposition with a pumped hasty creature, and Bedlam Reveler's discard then draw 3 is pretty nice.

    I don't think it is as consistently good as the current builds, but it is something to keep an eye on as new sets are released.

    Did I miss anything that would make the red build better?

  6. #1066
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Well... Prized Amalgam is a thing now. And there's Creeping Chill, which is pretty good.

    I also don't see why you'd run Bedlam Reveller over "I win". Colour matters very little in Manaless (unless you want to support FoWs).
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  7. #1067

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I don't have FoW, so I can't really run the blue version. My conventional list looks like this:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Prized Amalgam

    4 Urza's Bauble
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian

    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Ashen Rider
    4 Balustrade Spy

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return

    Sideboard:
    3 Faerie Macabre
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    1 Ashen Rider
    1 Realm Razer
    1 Serra Avatar
    2 Noxious Revival
    1 Contagion

    I am still working out the sideboard. Also, the baubles and Ashen Rider in the main can be switched out.

    I like Prized Amalgam a lot, but 4x felt like too many, though I might go back to that.

    Creeping Chill has felt a little like 'win more' to me, but I haven't been able to test much. It does nothing if drawn in the opening hand, and while it does do damage when dredged, if I DR the Spy, that damage doesn't matter. Again though, I would be fine taking the baubles out for Chills.

    I mostly included the baubles because I feel like they help make crazy turn 3s more consistent. Turn 1, DDD. Turn 2, play a bauble if a dredger is already in the graveyard. Crack it. Turn 3, dredge 2x.
    Last edited by Whoshim; 01-04-2019 at 09:17 AM.

  8. #1068

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I have a question regarding the average build of this deck.

    Why do most decklists I see run Whirlpool Rider over Whirlpool Drake?

    I recently bought into manaless, and I have been playing it online a lot. I really enjoy the deck, but I have been looking around the internet, and haven't found an answer to my question.
    Comparing the 2 cards, Whirlpool Drake seems (to me) strictly better than Whirlpool Rider, in the context of this deck. Whirlpool Rider is a 1/1 that has the effect of Winds of Change for your hand, and nothing more. Whirlpool Drake is a 2/2 Flyer that has that effect when it enters, and also when it dies.

    Since you will never cast either of these, and instead use Dread Return to reanimate the creature, why wouldn't the better body, and the additional death effect be preferred?

    I have been in situations where I Dread Return a Whirlpool Rider, and I only have 3ish cards in hand, due to the fact that I discarded to Phantasmagorians ability, and I didn't dredge as much as I would have liked. If I ran Whirlpool Drake instead, then casting cabal therapy or dread return via flashback afterwards would result in more dredging.

    Any insight on this would be appreciated! :)

  9. #1069

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomUser View Post
    Why do most decklists I see run Whirlpool Rider over Whirlpool Drake? )
    Disrupting Shoal allows you to exile Whirlpool Rider to counter a 2 mana spell - Rest in Peace, Thalia, etc. Drake costs 4 mana, and is therefore not as useful.

    EDIT: A question of my own. In my list, I have 4 baubles. I was wondering if the following would be a worthwhile replacement (maybe they should just be in the board):

    1 Magister of Worth
    1 Bane of Progress
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    1 Shambling Shell (for an extra dredger) or 1 Sadistic Hypnotist

    The Magister of Worth would allow the Flayer and Flame-Kin to come down (and Spy if we have not already played one). The Bane of Progress would clear any Ensnaring Bridges, etc.

    Generally, the Spy into Flayer plan seems fine, but there are some other things that could ruin our day.

  10. #1070

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    Disrupting Shoal allows you to exile Whirlpool Rider to counter a 2 mana spell - Rest in Peace, Thalia, etc. Drake costs 4 mana, and is therefore not as useful.
    Ok, that makes sense.

    I run FoW over Disrupting Shoal, because I find that FoW is better in many circumstances. I would imagine that WhirlPool Drake would be a better card to run, if that is the only advantage to running Rider.
    I assume that Shoal is ran for budget reasons, as the 1 point life loss in 99% of games is irrelevant.

    Thank you for your insight Whoshim!

  11. #1071
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @Whoshim It's the same problem. You're looking to exchange I win for something else. Don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  12. #1072

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    @Whoshim It's the same problem. You're looking to exchange I win for something else. Don't.
    Okay. I have a more focused sideboard now (to go with the deck I posted above):

    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Contagion
    3 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Flame-Kin Zealot
    1 Serra Avatar

    How do you feel about Lotleth Giant over Flayer in the main deck? There are corner cases where one or the other is better. I have been out of Magic for a while, so I don't know which one to go with.

    Concerning the sideboard, is there anything I should switch around? Contagion can pop 2 creatures, but Shoal gives the ability to take out Elesh Norn, which may be more important now.

    Thanks for your help.

  13. #1073
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Chill is pretty good. Last week it helped me fight through a Grafdigger's Cage(!) with my 2 lone zombie tokens.

    As for Giant or Flayer, both are fine. Flayer is probably more robust (and got a boost from Chill) but Giant might shorten the combo kill by one card.
    Last edited by Echelon; 01-07-2019 at 01:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  14. #1074

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+


  15. #1075
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Chill is pretty good. Last week it helped me fight through a Grafdigger's Cage(!) with my 2 lone zombie tokens.

    As for Giant or Flayer, both are fine. Flayer is probably more robust (and got a boost from Chill) but Giant might shorten the combo kill by one card.
    hi, to be fair in a deck with chill and spy neither flayer requires extra d.returns:
    mill the deck with spy [DR 1]
    chills for 9-12 dmg
    return flayer [DR 2], triggers amalgams
    flayer shoots 4 dmg - total 13-16
    cabal therapy if required sac flayer 5 dmg - total 18-21
    eot return amalgams 9-12 dmg - total 27-33 dmg

    giant needs 2 D.return too (spy+giant), but flayer has more flex imho

  16. #1076
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    And that's why I said Flayer got a boost w/ the introduction of Chill.

    Congrats, you got it.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  17. #1077
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    My usual caveat: I'm pretty inexperienced with this deck, though I've played a fair bit of LED Dredge.

    Three things strike me about Flayer and Chill: The first is that neither card fuels Ichorid. So they may be better for combo-finishes, but they're worse than Lotleth or just totally dead against any kind of taxing or countermagic. The second is that I can't (off the top of my head) think of cards against which we'd want Flayer that wouldn't just shut us down completely (negating the effect of a Dread Return and a Flayer to begin with). There's always Yixlid Jailer, but I've literally never seen that card played in any format of Magic since it came out. The third is that Chill seems great for certain things like fighting Cage and Elesh Norn, but I don't know that that makes it better than what people would replace with it. Notably, it's not a creature and it doesn't do anything to fuel Lotleth or any of our recursive creatures. Anybody have some input there? I tried to pick them up before my last two local tournaments (3–0 and 1–2), but the store was sold out and nobody seemed to have any Chills.

    I guess there's a fourth thing, which is that I'm still kicking around Lion's Eye Diamonds for the flex spots, but that's just me being me—er, I being myself. Anyway, don't mean to dump on either Flayer or Chill (again, I've been looking for Chills and I already have a Flayer). Just interested in hearing input from people with more experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  18. #1078

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhound View Post
    but flayer has more flex imho
    What does this actually mean?
    Presumably you are playing the exact same list with either 1 Flayer or 1 Giant

    In terms of combo kill:
    (1) Flayer: Higher damage ceiling with undying + return amalgams + potential DR targeting GGT (or at least this is what I am assuming, but haven't exactly counted it up)
    (2) Giant: 1-shot effect not disrupted by e.g. Swords to Plowshares

    In terms of synergy with the rest of the deck:
    (3) Giant: Black creature for Ichorid
    (4) Flayer: Probably a better DR target in a midgame situation where your entire deck is not in your graveyard? Can flashback therapy for 'free' (undying) and can shoot any target (creatures/PWs) ["more flex?"]

    I assume that last line is the main reason why people would prefer Flayer. Both reasons (1) and (2) seem pretty marginal, because lifegain is not that common and you can play around STP with therapy anyway. It doesn't seem like you would often use Flayer on things other than your opp's face but I guess it could come up, and having 1 extra black creature for ichorid probably doesn't make much of a difference.

  19. #1079
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @Ronald Deuce: Creeping Chill not feeding Ichorid isn't important. The other thing you'd run in that slot is Chancellor of the Annex, which doesn't feed Ichorid either.

    On the Giant and Flayer - Giant is probably the fastest route to a kill but Flayer is a little bit more robust vs. stuff like Stifle. In general it'll probably won't matter all that much which of the 2 you run. By the time you can DR either you'll probably win regardless.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  20. #1080
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    @Ronald Deuce: Creeping Chill not feeding Ichorid isn't important. The other thing you'd run in that slot is Chancellor of the Annex, which doesn't feed Ichorid either.
    Do you run Chill in the Chancellor slots because they are both somewhat flexible, or do they serve the same purpose as a clock-extender? Thanks for the response!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    On the Giant and Flayer - Giant is probably the fastest route to a kill but Flayer is a little bit more robust vs. stuff like Stifle. In general it'll probably won't matter all that much which of the 2 you run. By the time you can DR either you'll probably win regardless.
    And of course, I forgot about Stifle :| Yeah, I was wondering because both Giant and Flayer feel like one-shot KOs.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

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