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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1101

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Haven't tried it yet. You are right in that it makes your openers a lot better and makes for more keepable hands. It's just that it's live only 40% of the time. The other 60% of the time it does nothing.
    It's still a creature for Nether Shadow and Golgari Gravetroll if nothing else, it seems more impactful than Chancellor of the Annex right now.

  2. #1102
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Sure, but those few more creatures typically don't really matter too much. Especially in case of the Troll, since it usually comes down for well over 30/40+.

    It might provide more value than Chancellor at the moment, especially for those that run FoW (ofcourse) but for a Balustrade Spy list (so no FoW anywhere in the 75) I'm unsure if it beats Chill. Will have to test it though, because I do like the idea!

    One thing that I just happen to think of though - wouldn't running 4 extra dredgers over the Sphinx have pretty much the same result, especially G1? I can imagine Sphinxes being a whole lot better in the SB games though, especially when you're sporting FoW. Dunno. Just something to ponder on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  3. #1103
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Anybody else running Sphinx of Foresight in the open slots instead of Creeping Chill, filtering for deeper and double dredgers as well as Narcomoebas and recurring creatures is an increase in both consistency and speed. Also keeping a no dredger but one Sphinx hand is really good for SBing out Shambling Shell for Force of Will as well as finding Faerie Macabre vs Reanimator.

    For Manaless it feels like a free Brainstorm, that is kind of ridiculous IMO.
    I think it seems an interesting idea (I'm always struggling to find some of my 15 dredgers in my opening hand, and finding SB options shouldn't be bad neither). The downsides are losing the Balustrade package (almost an auto-win vs Show and Tell if you have it in hand) and Creeping Chill, which has demonstrated itself super-useful vs Burn, Death's Shadow and even Reanimator when they are low on life after Reanimate some dude/Activate Griselbrand.

    Do you folks have any blue Sphinx list on mind?

    For the record, I played last Thursday in my LGS, no great results (1-1-2, I think it's the first time ever I had a negative outcome with this deck). I drew against an absolutely absurd amount of hate vs D&T (2xRelics + 1 CoP Black games 2 & 3 + Cage game 2, Surgical game 3 and whatnot; I was dead on board but he ran out of turns), won 2-0 vs Ninjas and lost against Slow Depths and Reanimator after dredging dreadfully in both matches (though I should have won against Reanimator if I had discarded an Ichorid from hand instead of my lone GGT in one of my EoTs; I was ultra-tilted after 4 straight games of variance being a b*tch and I didn't see the correct line of play). I probably won't be able to play the next two weeks, so next chance will be the Feb. 23 Catalan Legacy League.
    Colorless is the new blue
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  4. #1104

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Sure, but those few more creatures typically don't really matter too much. Especially in case of the Troll, since it usually comes down for well over 30/40+.

    It might provide more value than Chancellor at the moment, especially for those that run FoW (ofcourse) but for a Balustrade Spy list (so no FoW anywhere in the 75) I'm unsure if it beats Chill. Will have to test it though, because I do like the idea!

    One thing that I just happen to think of though - wouldn't running 4 extra dredgers over the Sphinx have pretty much the same result, especially G1? I can imagine Sphinxes being a whole lot better in the SB games though, especially when you're sporting FoW. Dunno. Just something to ponder on.
    Assuming you're already playing 4 Shambling Shells, I don't see how playing 4 Greater Mossdogs at Dredge 3 would be much better than playing 4 Sphinx of Foresight who can Scry 3 for a Dredger of 3+ when the odds of finding a Dredger are ~2/3 not counting the draw or a Street Wraith. It's also dismissing the utility of the dig for specific cards, but overall it just seems like an increase in the deck's consistency without adding non creatures (in the case of Serum Powder) and makes Force of Will out of the SB more reliable.

    It's an option if nothing else, I like anything that adds consistency and so far it's been a reliable way to get to the 2nd dredger and outgrind Surgical Extractions.

  5. #1105

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    How much of an impact will the new London mulligan rule have if it becomes the standard? I feel like Manaless gets a lot worse because opponents can find their Leylines much more easily. Will the green version with removal become better again? Will the change make it too risky to play Manaless?

  6. #1106

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    How much of an impact will the new London mulligan rule have if it becomes the standard? I feel like Manaless gets a lot worse because opponents can find their Leylines much more easily. Will the green version with removal become better again? Will the change make it too risky to play Manaless?
    On the one hand, neither Reanimator nor dredge are doing so well at the top tables that they need dedicated SB hate. Plus, leylines got dumb expensive. So, to answer your question, Manaless Dredge won't be worth playing except in the playgroups where the pilot knows the competition just doesn't have access to the card. There is also a Horde Mode version that plays lands, but realistically, the Horde mode and green version are bad. A smart player under the new rule will mulligan 6 times for one Leyline, for sure.

  7. #1107

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Granted the new mulligan rule is a huge buff to Leyline of the Void, but you should expect to lose any match up vs Leyline of the Void regardless so it's just a "win more" issue.

  8. #1108

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    If the introduction of the new mulligan rule sticks, sphinx (scry 3) might help us out as we can sculpt better. I have been trying it out online by taking out chancellor x3 and I have won every game and match that leyline did not hit the table. Upping the pitch count to force for cards like Thalia, RiP or other graveyard interaction has been great. There has even been a scenario where I have slowed down the dredge one turn because I knew I would draw wraith and be able to blow out my opp... just food for thought that needs more testing.

  9. #1109
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Emeraldjsk View Post
    If the introduction of the new mulligan rule sticks, sphinx (scry 3) might help us out as we can sculpt better. I have been trying it out online by taking out chancellor x3 and I have won every game and match that leyline did not hit the table. Upping the pitch count to force for cards like Thalia, RiP or other graveyard interaction has been great. There has even been a scenario where I have slowed down the dredge one turn because I knew I would draw wraith and be able to blow out my opp... just food for thought that needs more testing.
    i only run 2 shambling shells and added 2 sphinx. fow pitch + finding a better dredger / finding counterspells on the top feels great.
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  10. #1110

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @noloam
    What is your list?

  11. #1111
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Emeraldjsk View Post
    @noloam
    What is your list?


    [4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
    [4x] Stinkweed Imp
    [4x] Golgari Thug
    [4x] Ichorid
    [4x] Nether Shadow
    [4x] Narcomoeba
    [4x] Bridge from Below
    [4x] Cabal Therapy
    [4x] Dread Return
    [4x] Phantasmagorian
    [4x] Street Wraith
    [4x] Crippling chill
    [4x] Prized Amalgam
    [3x] Whirlpool Rider
    [2x] Sphinx of firesight
    [2x] Shambling Shell
    [1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

    //Sideboard
    [4x] Force of will
    [2x] Disrupting Shoal
    [2x] Mindbreak Trap
    [3x] Faerie Macabre
    [2x] Chancellor of the annex
    [2x] Sickening shoal
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  12. #1112

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Noloam_ View Post
    [4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
    [4x] Stinkweed Imp
    [4x] Golgari Thug
    [4x] Ichorid
    [4x] Nether Shadow
    [4x] Narcomoeba
    [4x] Bridge from Below
    [4x] Cabal Therapy
    [4x] Dread Return
    [4x] Phantasmagorian
    [4x] Street Wraith
    [4x] Crippling chill
    [4x] Prized Amalgam
    [3x] Whirlpool Rider
    [2x] Sphinx of firesight
    [2x] Shambling Shell
    [1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

    //Sideboard
    [4x] Force of will
    [2x] Disrupting Shoal
    [2x] Mindbreak Trap
    [3x] Faerie Macabre
    [2x] Chancellor of the annex
    [2x] Sickening shoal
    Why faerie macabre? Also, is there a reason for sickening shoal over contagion?

  13. #1113

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Emeraldjsk View Post
    Why faerie macabre? Also, is there a reason for sickening shoal over contagion?
    Faerie - black creature eaten by icky & stacks for shadow, also non-spell grave hate that doesn't use mana

    Shoal - kills creatures with more than two toughness. Trades # of targets for size of targets.

  14. #1114
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Emeraldjsk View Post
    Why faerie macabre? Also, is there a reason for sickening shoal over contagion?
    everybody runs faerie for obvious reasons. vs br it blasts through cancellor on the draw. it is creature for shadow AND black for ichorid and you will get it into play once somebody resolves and exhume

    in dont see any reason for contagion since elves is pretty much dead. Shoal just kills bigger creature and does not cost you 1 life.
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  15. #1115

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    the only point i see pro contagion is the artwork
    and the suboptimal use to save ichorids against Terminus

  16. #1116
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by P-E View Post
    the only point i see pro contagion is the artwork
    and the suboptimal use to save ichorids against Terminus
    if you run the counter package, then there is no reason to run spotremoval vs miracles
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  17. #1117

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Is Creeping Chill really all that good? To me it feels like filler that I'd rather have as blue (FoW) and do something in my hand (Sphinx of Foresight). I haven't really felt that Chill pushed me over the edge. Any thoughts on replacing Chill with Sphinx?

  18. #1118
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Noloam seems to do both, sorta.

    When just on Balustrade Spy Chill is the real deal though. I can imagine it'd be a little different when you want to run the FoW package.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
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  19. #1119
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Noloam seems to do both, sorta.

    When just on Balustrade Spy Chill is the real deal though. I can imagine it'd be a little different when you want to run the FoW package.
    very true. you make some concessions when run the w.riders
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  20. #1120

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21623&d=345178&f=LE

    48 CREATURES
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    2 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    2 Whirlpool Rider

    8 INSTANTS and SORC.
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return

    4 OTHER SPELLS
    4 Bridge from Below

    SIDEBOARD
    2 Ashen Rider
    3 Disrupting Shoal
    4 Faerie Macabre
    4 Force of Will
    2 Vengeful Pharaoh

    This list intrigues me due to the amount of disruption it has. It doesn't have Creeping Chill though. However, it adds in creatures into most of the other slots. The sideboard is 8 creatures and 7 counterspells. I really like the idea of keeping the creature count so high. I do wonder at only running 2 Whirlpool Riders and 2 Flayers. It seems like running only 2 Riders makes hitting them for the win rather inconsistent. Wouldn't a 3/1 split there be better? Does anyone have any other thoughts?

    There was another Manaless Dredge deck that took second at a 28-person tournament recently. It was similar to other lists above, with 4 Creeping Chill and the blue counterspell package.

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