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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1161

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by gRR!! View Post
    Maybe we could add Noxious Revival to our SB to up the green cards count?

    Also, with the non-blue Echelon version, we have one Progenitus, which is also green.

    I really like Force of Vigor. Double-timewalking ourselves might be an issue, but again, the opponent might have mulligan aggressively to find LotV/Cage.
    You better not timewalk yourself against an opponent who played Cage. Shame on you fellow dredger! :-)

    Edit a: And! There are rumors about the black version of the force cycle being similar to Contagion to deal with Priest. Now we just need a recursive creature that's both black and green on the same powerlevel as Ichorid and Narc XD

    Edit b: Sorry for multiple edits. Just thought about it again in regards to Cage specifically; like I wrote earlier: Cage doesn't stop dredging, so you can dig deep for GGT to pitch for FoV. Now you can carry on with your necromantic ways...

    Edit c: They literally just spoiled the black version, as I was writing edit b. Hahaha. Force of Despair: Pitch black card not during your turn to cast. Destroy all creatures that entered the battlefield this turn. That solves Priest

  2. #1162
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Just throwing this out there: would Land Grant be a card we would ever play?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  3. #1163

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    Edit c: They literally just spoiled the black version, as I was writing edit b. Hahaha. Force of Despair: Pitch black card not during your turn to cast. Destroy all creatures that entered the battlefield this turn. That solves Priest
    Yeah but why don't just play contagion?

  4. #1164
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    That solves Priest
    Except Priest has flash and is usually cast on your turn in response to Dread Return or Narcomoeba/Ichorid triggers...
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  5. #1165

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Opps. Forgot about that. Jaja

  6. #1166

    Force of Vigor 16 sources

    Hello people (first post here). I just recently came back to Magic, and although I tried to convince old friends to play modern, in the end everyone just loves legacy. That being so and as budget was a concern (and burn was getting old) so there I went onto manaless dredge. Just a few months after I bought a FoW set, there came the banning of Probe. But not to worry, cause now we can fight off those pesky leylines of the void.

    Anyway, I was so happy with the Force of Vigor spoiler that I immediately tinkered a list with it. I call it the fearfull Manaless Dredge (as opposed to the fearless one) cause it is meant to answer every hate card possible. Tell me what you think:

    Deck

    3x Dread Return
    2x Phantasmagorian
    4x Cabal Therapy
    4x Bridge from Below
    4x Narcomoeba
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    4x Ichorid
    4x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Shambling Shell
    2x Dakmor Salvage
    4x Unmask
    4x Chancellor of the Annex
    2x Greater Mossdog
    2x Nether Shadow
    2x Whirlpool Drake
    2x Gigapede
    1x Flame-Kin Zealot

    Sideboard

    3x Sickening Shoal
    4x Mindbreak Trap
    4x Faerie Macabre
    2x Contagion
    2x Whirlpool Drake


    4 missing slots are meant to Force of Vigor (or Faeries + greens out if your meta asks for that). Dakmor Salvage is there to play against Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, but it disallows Balustrade Spy, so it is up to the player. You can hard cast Therapy off it as well. After some testing, neither Lotleth Giant nor Flayer of the Hatebound works very well with Whirlpool Rider/Drake, which in turn does not have very good sinergy with Phantasmagorian (one want to keep some cards in hand, the other makes then to go away really fast). Since we are down on recursive creatures and one less Dread Return, that does make a difference.

    Prized Amalgam out means you can play both Unmask and Chancellor of the Annex, so you can effectivelly Time Walk an adversary and strip him of a key component right at the start if he tries to play around you. 16 Green sources in the form of Gigapedes, Mossdogs, Shells, Trolls and FoV's (Golgari Thug is out). Gigapede allows you to parcel out the use of Phantasmagorian, so you don't lock yourself out on a risk play (leading to a lack of dredgers in a graveyard, for example, or a lack of cards in hand when comes an opportunity to Whirlpool out).

    All in all it plays more like older Manaless, and 3 cards in hand are often enough for the Drake/Rider to put out a Zealot + zombie kills. It does not feel as fast as the Probe/Chill + Flayer, but I felt it to be more reliable on solo testing. If you forego of the Salvages and go the Ballustrade + Lotleth way, can kill on turn two, albeit rarely.

  7. #1167

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Just throwing this out there: would Land Grant be a card we would ever play?
    if you want to go this route: dryad arbor, land grant, reverent silence & nature's claim have some synergies imho (inkl. the new green force of vigor).

  8. #1168
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'm testing all kinds of stuff*, ideally to make both new Forces fit into the SB. Obviously there are many directions you could go with different builds and card choices, but as a starting point for anyone else about to test: I think Gigapede's back in the 75, in multiples.

    I'm reluctant to just jam shitty green cards into the worsened deck to make 4 SB cards work, but Gigapede hasn't felt like that, and not just because it pitches (you can even dredge into it and return it to your hand if you need a green pitch card). Just as importantly, with 4 or 8 or 12 anti-hate pitch cards post-board, you're gonna find yourself nuking your hand often, and it's been ace having more Phantasmagorian effects to discard a dredger if your one dredger doesn't hit another. Gigapede got eclipsed by other cards over the years, but because of all the pitch cards and less reliable cleanup discard, I think it's gotten better.

    *-Making the blue shell work is straightforward
    -Haven't tested Noxious Revival much. Seems worse than Gigapede. It can put a dredged Force of Vigor on top of your library if there isn't a RiP/LotV effect
    -Even trying shit like Greater Mossdogs in the SB to replace Golgari Thug post-board lol
    -Might have to lose Creeping Chill and a varied sideboard
    -I've only been working within the common recent shell; haven't been working with Dryad Arbor, Dakmor Salvage, Dryad Arbor, Nature's Claim, etc. at all
    -A U/G Dread Return target would be big

  9. #1169

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Gigapede is a good card, it lets you optimize your graveyard by discarding any business from your hand while keeping your hand size at seven. I'm just running Force of Vigor, black pitch removal and Faerie Macabre and it's working out perfectly fine.

    MD
    4 Golgari Grave Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Gigapede
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgram
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    2 Balustrade Spy
    2 Lotleth Giant
    SB
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Contagion
    3 Sickening Shoal
    4 Faerie Macabre (or Leyline of the Void)

  10. #1170
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Gigapede is a good card, it lets you optimize your graveyard by discarding any business from your hand while keeping your hand size at seven. I'm just running Force of Vigor, black pitch removal and Faerie Macabre and it's working out perfectly fine.

    MD
    4 Golgari Grave Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Gigapede
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgram
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    2 Balustrade Spy
    2 Lotleth Giant
    SB
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Contagion
    3 Sickening Shoal
    4 Faerie Macabre (or Leyline of the Void)


    seems decent. but a phantasmagorian cut seems to me like a more natural one for gigapede. perhaps 2 of each one
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  11. #1171

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Noloam_ View Post
    seems decent. but a phantasmagorian cut seems to me like a more natural one for gigapede. perhaps 2 of each one
    For what? 4xGigapede has to be in the deck for Force of Vigor, and Phantasmagorian still speeds up the deck by discarding multiple business cards at once while feeding Ichorid from the graveyard. The redundancy increases the synergy of the deck, if you start with a Phantasmagorian in your hand then you can replace it with a Gigapede in your graveyard, discard your hand + Gigapede and then replace your best Dredger in hand with Gigapede two turns later to optimize your dredging if necessary. Creeping Chill is ok and all, but it makes Nether Shadow less consistent and doesn't add anything vital to the deck fwiw.

    Redundancy is what fuels this deck's wins more than anything IMO.

  12. #1172
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    For what? 4xGigapede has to be in the deck for Force of Vigor, and Phantasmagorian still speeds up the deck by discarding multiple business cards at once while feeding Ichorid from the graveyard. The redundancy increases the synergy of the deck, if you start with a Phantasmagorian in your hand then you can replace it with a Gigapede in your graveyard, discard your hand + Gigapede and then replace your best Dredger in hand with Gigapede two turns later to optimize your dredging if necessary. Creeping Chill is ok and all, but it makes Nether Shadow less consistent and doesn't add anything vital to the deck fwiw.

    Redundancy is what fuels this deck's wins more than anything IMO.
    that phantsamo + gigapede interaction is one i did not think of earlier :).
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  13. #1173

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hogaak, Arisen Necropolise looks like a contender for the green cards 12-16, it looks a little slow between having to Convoke for 2 and Delve for 5 but it's a possible T3 8/8 by itself, pitches to Force of Vigor, feeds Ichorid and Dread Returns. I think there is enough business for Manaless Dredge that we can cut the combo kill in favour of Hogaak and just aim to attack for lethal on T4?

  14. #1174

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I don't know if I would go above 2 Hogaak. It is legendary, so we can only use one at a time. It requires a bit of investment on our part compared to other creatures we run. It also turns on our opponent's counterspells.

    The BG colors are good for our pitch spells, so adding one or two seems possible. The upside of being able to cast it, sac it to Cabal Therapy, get a couple of zombies from Bridge, then cast it again seems good.

  15. #1175
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Hogaak, Arisen Necropolise looks like a contender for the green cards 12-16, it looks a little slow between having to Convoke for 2 and Delve for 5 but it's a possible T3 8/8 by itself, pitches to Force of Vigor, feeds Ichorid and Dread Returns. I think there is enough business for Manaless Dredge that we can cut the combo kill in favour of Hogaak and just aim to attack for lethal on T4?
    that card is absurd to me. we should just forget about the gigapedes. perhaps 3 hogaak and 1 gigapede. what do you think echolon?
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  16. #1176

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    I don't know if I would go above 2 Hogaak. It is legendary, so we can only use one at a time. It requires a bit of investment on our part compared to other creatures we run. It also turns on our opponent's counterspells.

    The BG colors are good for our pitch spells, so adding one or two seems possible. The upside of being able to cast it, sac it to Cabal Therapy, get a couple of zombies from Bridge, then cast it again seems good.
    I've been gold fishing it for awhile now, I think you definitely need 4 because you want to get 1 on the board as soon as possible and you can just feed the other copies to your Ichords or other Hogaaks to activate them (also, redundancy vs Swords to Plowshares matters). The card is kind of absurd, it's like WOTC gave Manaless Dredge a Tinker Dreadnought and regardless of whether or not you cut the combo it even accelerates your Dread Return by guaranteeing 3 creatures on board for it (since you have to have 2 already for Convoke). In theory, I think the deck might cut Gigapede and the combo targets for Hogaaks and Creeping Chill, between Trample and Lightning Bolts you should get there on T4. I don't think turning on Counter Spells is a real argument, besides Cabal Therapy to push it thru' that just means there is one less Counter Spell for Dread Return.

    This set feels like Christmas.

  17. #1177
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    these are my thoughts right now:

    Mainboard:

    4 golgari grave troll
    4 stinkweed imp
    4 golgari thug
    4 shambling shell
    3 whrilpool rider
    4 prized amalgam

    4 bridge from below
    4 cabal therapy
    4 dread return
    3 hogaak, arisen necropolis
    1 gigapede


    4 street wraith
    4 nether shadow
    4 narcomoeba
    1 flayer of the hateboand
    4 phantasmagorian
    4 ichorid






    Sideboard:

    1 disrupting shoal
    4 force of will
    4 force of vigor
    3 faerie macabre
    1 chancellor of anex
    2 mindbreak trap
    Eldrazi stompy list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/noloam

    sideboard guide can be found on page 84

  18. #1178

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I've been gold fishing it for awhile now, I think you definitely need 4 because you want to get 1 on the board as soon as possible and you can just feed the other copies to your Ichords or other Hogaaks to activate them (also, redundancy vs Swords to Plowshares matters). The card is kind of absurd, it's like WOTC gave Manaless Dredge a Tinker Dreadnought and regardless of whether or not you cut the combo it even accelerates your Dread Return by guaranteeing 3 creatures on board for it (since you have to have 2 already for Convoke). In theory, I think the deck might cut Gigapede and the combo targets for Hogaaks and Creeping Chill, between Trample and Lightning Bolts you should get there on T4. I don't think turning on Counter Spells is a real argument, besides Cabal Therapy to push it thru' that just means there is one less Counter Spell for Dread Return.

    This set feels like Christmas.
    I do believe 4 is the correct number.

    While the theory of dropping half the combo seems nice, I believe you still need to be able to dump your library to find something like Giant or Flayer to reach over an Ensnaring.

    This new addition increases T2 lethal by a small margin, it feeds itself, Ich, and FoV, and can be cast under a Priest. Also, being Legendary is a built in sac just in case you want to pump your zombie count by a large margin (in this case with enough Bridges it's much better than not having Legendary). Just don't know what to cut. It seems like a great card, but I was hoping for another green dredger

  19. #1179
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    It seems like a great card, but I was hoping for another green dredger
    We're not done yet...still room for more common/uncommon green dredgers. We just got a dredge Shatter spoiled, it wouldn't be unreasonable to get something playable.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  20. #1180

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    I do believe 4 is the correct number.

    While the theory of dropping half the combo seems nice, I believe you still need to be able to dump your library to find something like Giant or Flayer to reach over an Ensnaring.

    This new addition increases T2 lethal by a small margin, it feeds itself, Ich, and FoV, and can be cast under a Priest. Also, being Legendary is a built in sac just in case you want to pump your zombie count by a large margin (in this case with enough Bridges it's much better than not having Legendary). Just don't know what to cut. It seems like a great card, but I was hoping for another green dredger
    I think you can SB in that green fatty that turns permanents into elephant tokens post board along with Force of Vigor if Ensaring Bridge is a thing, at the rate I'm gold fishing lethal right now I don't think the combo is necessary and you can just play pure business. The big thing is that the Delve mechanic gives spells new utility as a graveyard resource, I'm thinking Unmask might have a second life waiting for it considering it both gets rid of a counter and accelerates this dude onto the field.

    This card is like holy fucking shit good, no way you play less than 4.

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