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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #101

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Okay so I thought I'd take Blue-Manaless out for another stroll.
    Keen to try out Pharoah again, so I included a few in the side for an answer to Priest etc.

    Pretty standard list....
    4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
    4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
    4 [TO] Ichorid
    4 [B] Nether Shadow
    4 [FUT] Street Wraith
    1 [DKA] Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
    4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
    4 [AP] Whirlpool Rider
    3 [RAV] Shambling Shell
    4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
    4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
    4 [TSP] Dread Return
    4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
    4 [AL] Force of Will

    SB: 4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
    SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
    SB: 3 [AL] Contagion
    SB: 2 [M12] Vengeful Pharaoh
    SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
    I decided I wanted to keep an answer to Storm c/o Traps, so I dropped Ashen Riders for Pharaohs. Show has been lying low lately, so I didn't think it would be a big deal.
    Probably not a great call, but this was just a meet at the local, not a big tourney or anything.

    I went 4-1
    RUG (Tarmogoyf, Delver, Mongoose) 2-1
    High Tide 2-0
    RW Burn 2-0 (he was playing a unique burn-deck with Stoneforge Mystic, Luminarch Ascension & some swords)
    BGr Nic-Fit 2-1 (cabal therapy war )
    Ad-Nauseum Storm 0-2 c/o Surgical Extraction & Targetted discard multiple times.

    I had a pretty lucky night getting counter in hand. In the last match against Ad Nauseum I copped terrible opening hands. That said he got nuts-hands so I don't think I would've won anyway.

    I sided in Pharoah for RUG to slow down his Goyfs, but chose not to for the other games. It worked once killing a Goyf, but after that he was wise to it.

  2. #102
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I've been testing a lot this week end with manaless.

    I've played this:

    1 flayer
    3 whirlpool rider
    4 serum powder
    4 phanstamagorian
    4 stimp
    4 GGT
    4 thug
    4 narco
    4 bridge
    4 ichorids
    4 shadow
    4 wraith
    4 probes
    4 therapy
    4 dreturn
    4 fows

    Side
    2 ashen rider
    4 faerie
    3 contagion
    2 pharaoh
    4 shoal U

    I saw during last weeks that many times that I opened 7s that could be keepable (because had dredgers) but would do nothing except DDD. Against fair decks this could be enough, but when you face combo decks or really fast ones this isn't enough.
    So I thought to introduce serum powders.
    I chose to remove 1 "frex slot" like inkwell leviathan and then the 3 shells since serums should also act like a dredger allowing you to mull for free if searching for dredgers.

    I tested against ANT, UW golddigger, 12 post, reanimator, WRpainter and LEDdredge. I know it's a bit warped meta.

    Blue shell with fows MD was great due to the tempo that let you gain against decks that can run you on g1 -ANT, painter and reanimator, also pretty good against those who can blow you in g1 -renimator for elesh norn, LEDdredge flawless starts and posts with crop4bojuka

    I won 90% of the games I used powders, half of them I would have lost keeping the original hand. Serum killed me just one time due to exiling flayer against painter and he landed a topdecked ensnaring bridge at 2 life points during a preside game. Seems that powders could be a powerful inclusion to the deck.

    I'm not totally sold on the SB inclusions. Pharaoh feels like a one-trick-pony and after that just stalls the game (and many times not so well, i.e. it won't stops elves alphastrike). Also the second ashen rider feels awkward. Probably would be better to use that slot for a 6th creature removal or a antimill card like progenitus.

    my2cents

  3. #103

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhound View Post
    Pharaoh feels like a one-trick-pony and after that just stalls the game (and many times not so well, i.e. it won't stops elves alphastrike). Also the second ashen rider feels awkward. Probably would be better to use that slot for a 6th creature removal or a antimill card like progenitus.
    Yeah that was my thought on Pharoah too. Kinda nice to test it out though, I've been a bit lazy with manaless for a while.
    IMHO, I don't think Progenitus is what we need unless Balustrade Spy is being talked about.

    Being honest, if I was going to include a niche-creature in the main that works in the blue shell, my first thought would be cards like Child of Alara for destruction & Dragonlord Silumgar for thieving (and sacrificing later), maybe even Ruthless Deathfang in UB.
    One I'm interested in is Vela the Night-Clad, to see if it might be a blue-shell option to replace Flayer of the Hatebound and up that blue-count.
    It doesn't have the raw power of Flayer for a combo-turn kill, so my immediate thought is a massive nope!, but the intimidate option might be useful.
    I'll see how it tests out.... anyone else tried this card before?
    I dunno... I'm kinda tempted to go with a single Sire of Insanity in the main just to give the competitive people fits.

    I've noticed a lot of you running blue are running with 3 Whirlpool Rider's, rather than a full 4.
    I've been finding that I quite often need a full set postboard, as I quite often end up exiling a Rider for counter in game 2 and 3.
    Of those of you running with 3, have you ever (or often) had issues with running less than a full 4?
    Last edited by slave; 05-05-2015 at 04:52 PM.

  4. #104
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Yeah that was my thought on Pharoah too. Kinda nice to test it out though, I've been a bit lazy with manaless for a while.
    IMHO, I don't think Progenitus is what we need unless Balustrade Spy is being talked about.

    Being honest, if I was going to include a niche-creature in the main that works in the blue shell, my first thought would be cards like Child of Alara for destruction & Dragonlord Silumgar for thieving (and sacrificing later), maybe even Ruthless Deathfang in UB.
    One I'm interested in is Vela the Night-Clad, to see if it might be a blue-shell option to replace Flayer of the Hatebound and up that blue-count.
    It doesn't have the raw power of Flayer for a combo-turn kill, so my immediate thought is a massive nope!, but the intimidate option might be useful.
    I'll see how it tests out.... anyone else tried this card before?
    I dunno... I'm kinda tempted to go with a single Sire of Insanity in the main just to give the competitive people fits.

    I've noticed a lot of you running blue are running with 3 Whirlpool Rider's, rather than a full 4.
    I've been finding that I quite often need a full set postboard, as I quite often end up exiling a Rider for counter in game 2 and 3.
    Of those of you running with 3, have you ever (or often) had issues with running less than a full 4?
    The 4th whirlpool deserves some testing, it could be a good choice. I m also considering reveillark to improve terminus' based MU (to return double troll if opponent terminus the board). I ll test it out and i ll let you know if it works out.

  5. #105
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhound View Post
    The 4th whirlpool deserves some testing, it could be a good choice. I m also considering reveillark to improve terminus' based MU (to return double troll if opponent terminus the board). I ll test it out and i ll let you know if it works out.
    Why the hell would you want to waste a DR on Reveillark? In MU's where you expect Terminus (or counters, spot removal or otherwise annoying crap), you Therapy your opponent before attempting to go off. If you get to the point where you can resolve a DR safely, just go for the win.

    Otherwise they'll just Entreat the Angels and laugh their ass off at your silly Reveillark as they punch your lights out. It has no value in this deck whatsoever.

  6. #106
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Why the hell would you want to waste a DR on Reveillark? In MU's where you expect Terminus (or counters, spot removal or otherwise annoying crap), you Therapy your opponent before attempting to go off. If you get to the point where you can resolve a DR safely, just go for the win.

    Otherwise they'll just Entreat the Angels and laugh their ass off at your silly Reveillark as they punch your lights out. It has no value in this deck whatsoever.
    First therapy vs top + terminus is unuseful. Second of they're not dumbasses they'll let you solve dread return of flayer and then clean the board off top with the second return on stack after bridges solves, so you'll just get a single troll and nothing else that can be chumped ad infinitum. 2 of them are more likely to go for it.

    That was a testing proposal which is always a constructive thing while your answer just denotes a brainfarted attitude.

    You're welcome.

  7. #107
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yet what you are describing is such an extreme corner case I wonder why you bother to bring it up. Consider how big a graveyard and how many resources you need to pull that off and so on and so on. You do not only need to be able to DR the Reveillark but also be able to threaten with the combo kill (since you're not looking to pull it off) either that turn or incredibly soon thereafter.

    I appreciate the idea but doubt its potential.

    And concerning a number of posts before this, I'll Lemnear this shit by stating the following:
    Why bother with a DR target that does not help you win the game on the spot? Seriously, it's like the "It's big and green, can't we use it as a NO-target" bits in the Elves! section.

  8. #108
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Yet what you are describing is such an extreme corner case I wonder why you bother with the hassle. Consider how big a graveyard and how many resources you need to pull that off and so on and so on. You do not only need to be able to DR the Reveillark but also be able to threaten with the combo kill (since you're not looking to pull it off) either that turn or incredibly soon thereafter.

    I appreciate the idea but doubt its potential.
    Well 1 card in SB doesn't seems to me a big commitment of resources and top+terminus it's a real thing in miracles and golddigger MU. Those Decks are a big component of european meta. The fact that I really dont like it's that reveillark isn't black nor blue so it cant feed ichorid nor fows.

    Another option could be reaching quote 3 or 4 ashen rider to improve the chances of havin it in hand vs s&t decks.

  9. #109

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhound View Post
    The 4th whirlpool deserves some testing, it could be a good choice. I m also considering reveillark to improve terminus' based MU (to return double troll if opponent terminus the board). I ll test it out and i ll let you know if it works out.
    I've almost always used the 4th Whirlpool Rider in the main. That chance of having to exile one is high enough that I want to be able to exile one without having to think about it.
    I get a lot of Surgical Extraction around me, so quite often I lose GGT and have to slow dredge. When this happens, being able to find a Whirpool without going thru the whole deck feels important enough to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Why the hell would you want to waste a DR on Reveillark?
    Yeah I tend to agree.
    Is it worth a test? Yeah sure, why not.
    But if Terminus/Entreat is giving you nightmares, I'd look no further than Iona, Shield of Emeria myself.
    I used to run a single of the flying fuck-your-combo-bitch! a while back, but I had it used against me a few times too many to consider it main-deck material.

    I'm currently looking for blue options to satisfy the blue shell, but if I wasn't, this fat bitch would be in my top3 of considerations for the sideboard-creature slots.
    EDIT:
    I'm currently trying really hard to find a good U/B option, but I can't seem to find anything better than good ole Inkwell Leviathan or Tidespout Tyrant.
    I'm a BIG FAN of Tidespout, given we could bring him back and reject their everything. That's said, is it as good as Flayer?! I would say not quite, but it's debateable.....

  10. #110
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    It would seem that if you wanted to play around Top into Terminus, Iona would be the best. Also applicable v OmniTell, Storm, Sneak 'n Show, Burn (if for some reason you can't be faster), and Wr Painter (name R and then counter RiP with no possibility of a Blast on the return of serve).

  11. #111
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    That is indeed the other way you can go with sideboarding. Rather than trying to answer every problem your opponent can throw at you, try to reverse the rolls and stick a threat they can't answer so you're done after a single DR. It takes considerably less of a graveyard and resources to do so. To deal with anyDelver.dec, you could have a number of Inkwell Leviathan in your SB and so on. Come to think of it, it is a way of sideboarding that allows you to keep the deck as fast as possible while still bringing you in a position from where your opponent can't beat you.

    On the other hand, it might be The Danger Of Cool Things talking. With such an approach, you'll again be defenseless vs. RiP & friends, apart from your MB counter package. Still, this deck is a high risk, high reward deck anyways, so there's that.

  12. #112

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Has any body found Vengeful Pharaoh useful in the MD at all for slowing down the opponent's clock while you slowly Dredge off of a Shambling Shell or Golgari Thug? I've been looking for a really generic creature to play in that slot that can't get countered like Shifting Wall, and considering it plausibly does something useful, if not really fucking annoying, while still being Ichorid food makes me a bit curious.

  13. #113

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Playing manaless today, standard spy list. I will try to keep track of my matches and compose my results. If I can find a couple Pharohs I'll replace two chancellors with them MB.

  14. #114

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Has any body found Vengeful Pharaoh useful in the MD at all for slowing down the opponent's clock while you slowly Dredge off of a Shambling Shell or Golgari Thug? I've been looking for a really generic creature to play in that slot that can't get countered like Shifting Wall, and considering it plausibly does something useful, if not really fucking annoying, while still being Ichorid food makes me a bit curious.
    Yeah I'm curious too.
    The whole reliance of the deck on bridges makes me wonder if a version without Bridges being necessary to win, is even possible.

  15. #115

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What, whole reliance? You can just beat with Ichorids, Narcos, use dread return on e.g. Troll/Flayer/Chancellor without bridges...

  16. #116

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Got second place losing to miracles in the finals today, twenty man tournament, spy list.

    Matches as follow,

    2-1 jund
    0-2 elves
    2-0 miracles
    2-1 burn
    2-0 bug delver
    Semis:
    2-0 burn
    Finals:
    1-2 miracles

    Deck ran hot today. Couldnt find the pharohs to test unfortunately. Losses in the finals were from contaiment priest and rip, glad to answer any questions on todays matches.

  17. #117
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Yeah I'm curious too.
    The whole reliance of the deck on bridges makes me wonder if a version without Bridges being necessary to win, is even possible.
    If you honestly believe the Bridges are a necessity, you're playing the deck horribly wrong or haven't the slightest idea of what you're doing. This deck leans on Ichorid/Nether Shadow more than anything else. Your Bridges are mostly bargaining chips to get your opponent to make bad blocks/waste cards killing his own creatures. Getting tokens from a Bridge, let alone multiple, is just frosting on the cake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    If you honestly believe the Bridges are a necessity, you're playing the deck horribly wrong or haven't the slightest idea of what you're doing. This deck leans on Ichorid/Nether Shadow more than anything else. Your Bridges are mostly bargaining chips to get your opponent to make bad blocks/waste cards killing his own creatures. Getting tokens from a Bridge, let alone multiple, is just frosting on the cake.
    I think the same thing as you. I feel this deck relies a whole lot less on Bridges than LEDDredge.
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  19. #119

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    If you honestly believe the Bridges are a necessity, you're playing the deck horribly wrong or haven't the slightest idea of what you're doing.
    LOL. That's a bit harsh isn't it?
    Feel free to test your theory out. Omit Bridges from the main and see where your win% goes.

    Anyways;
    What I was talking about is speed, in regards to the *reliance* on bridges, to beat fast opponents in Legacy.
    Sorry if I didn't type it in exactly that wording. The point is, without Bridges in the yard, you need quite a lot to go your way in order to beat someone playing a fast deck. That's not going to happen regularly in a deck where we can't mulligan or tutor, and where we don't run any form of filter.
    My reason for believing this is based on experience. I've been playing Manaless and LED-Dredge for years.

    My thoughts on Pharaoh is from the perspective of having tested it myself on numerous occasions in tourney and casual settings, and so far I see few reasons to include Pharaoh in the main given the anti-synergy with Bridges. From the side is another story.
    A version of Manaless with Pharaoh and no Bridges might be a possibility, but I would have to assume it would be even more glass-cannon than Manaless already is.

  20. #120

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmythegreek View Post
    Got second place losing to miracles in the finals today, twenty man tournament, spy list.

    Matches as follow,

    2-1 jund
    0-2 elves
    2-0 miracles
    2-1 burn
    2-0 bug delver
    Semis:
    2-0 burn
    Finals:
    1-2 miracles

    Deck ran hot today. Couldnt find the pharohs to test unfortunately. Losses in the finals were from contaiment priest and rip, glad to answer any questions on todays matches.
    Which list did you used bro? Congrats for the great result

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