Page 67 of 68 FirstFirst ... 1757636465666768 LastLast
Results 1,321 to 1,340 of 1347

Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1321
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,889

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I've had people Surgical my dredger. It's not a smart play, but it is a thing some people do. There's a difference between what people shouldn't do and what they actually do do.

    FWIW my Shamblings Shells aren't going anywhere. No Once Upon A Times for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  2. #1322

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Once Upon A Time does contradict the philosophy of the deck. I like what seems to do for it, though. And, it's just exciting for me to see spoiled cards that might push the deck to be more competitive. Yes, it might very well be not great. I do enjoy the prospect of its spiciness nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Experience matters, you're replacing the engine of a deck with a card that can be countered or discarded, that is completely antithetical to what makes the deck strong vs its good match ups.
    Great point about it being interactive, as I mentioned earlier. I still don't understand this whole experience story you keep mentioning, though. I've played the deck a lot over the years, but I don't use my experience to polarize this discussion about what's right and wrong. It's too ambiguous, and it comes off as arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I don't think people Surgical Extraction Dredgers, I KNOW people Surgical Extraction Dredgers because I've seen it. Whether or not that is the best stratgy vs Manaless is irrelevant, having your first Dredger RFGed is something that you must have an answer to - and that answer is generally redundancy.
    It totally is relevant, actually, if you want to win competitively. If you start to construct a deck and make decisions based on the irrationality of your opponents, you will end up with a mess of a list that doesn't put up the results against good players. Their bad decisions shouldn't dictate you to make bad decisions as well. Adding or subtracting dredgers because of dubious extractions is bad decision-making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Go ahead and cut Shambling Shells and Golgari Thugs and see what happens, it's only a matter of observation. People have tried every thing under the sun to cut Shambling Shell, Serum Powder was already there and it's uncounterable, and it has never worked out.
    I never wrote that I cut Golgari Thug, but I did write that it was sub-optimal. Shambling Shell is bad, and perhaps Once Upon a Time is bad as well. I have tested Shell, and it's garbage. Because of this, I consider the list incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I cut Once Upon a Time fron the deck already because it's not particularly helpful and feeds into counter spells. It's worse than Gitaxian Probe, and that card wasn't even that great. So good luck.
    Agreed. And Probe was almost great. It needed to be an instant, but it would have been banned sooner. I don't need luck though, as I don't play the deck anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    I've had people Surgical my dredger. It's not a smart play, but it is a thing some people do. There's a difference between what people shouldn't do and what they actually do do.
    And I've had people stifle my Phantasmagorian? The difference is that, actually, most of the time the good players win, and the bad players lose

    So, I was wondering about what all choices there are for lethal DR targets: Devil and Giant. Should we consider Syr Konrad as well? I mean, they all are fatal after a Spy or Griselbrand, usually. What about early conditions where our graves are too shallow? An early Konrad shuts off the mirror matchup, which is cool. He also is the best target against Elesh, which is hate against us in Reanimator. Thoughts?

  3. #1323
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2016
    Location

    North of France
    Posts

    26

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I usually play Flayer of the Hatebound because against a tabernacle itís a little better than giant. I didnít know konrad I ll have a look to it. Nice to see what we think fixed can still be discussed

  4. #1324

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    People will gamble on extracting the first dredger, because if you don't have another then you're stuck in top deck mode. Stripping business out of the deck tends to be a lost cause, you are so redundant on business that the deck doesn't care if it loses any one set. The strategy works especially well vs people who cut Shambling Shell, because they don't have the 2nd dredger in hand to keep going. No card you can add to the deck gives it enough value in order to open it up to another angle of attack from the starting hand, that is why Shambling Shell gets played.

    I am fine with Lotleth, black creatures feed Ichorid and Hogaak so they are preferable.

  5. #1325

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    People will gamble on extracting the first dredger, because if you don't have another then you're stuck in top deck mode. Stripping business out of the deck tends to be a lost cause, you are so redundant on business that the deck doesn't care if it loses any one set. The strategy works especially well vs people who cut Shambling Shell, because they don't have the 2nd dredger in hand to keep going. No card you can add to the deck gives it enough value in order to open it up to another angle of attack from the starting hand, that is why Shambling Shell gets played.
    Renaming bad plays as gambles doesn't change anything here. And, it's not a sound strategy by any means. Good players know that Manaless cannot get off the ground until Ichorid and Narco hit the field. Dredge all day with as many Shells as you want; you won't be digging that deep anyways with them. Double surgical or surgical and snap or surgical and dreadhorde on recursive creatures cripples this deck harder than targeting dredgers and gambling that you don't have Street Wraith AND a different dredger in hand, which you naturally pitch next turn anyways and start the engine up. This is all obvious, so I'd suggest against making deck construction choices hoping your opponents don't know how to play against Manaless.

    If you decide to run Shambling Shell for the value and consistency, than that's a different topic

  6. #1326

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bougnat View Post
    I usually play Flayer of the Hatebound because against a tabernacle itís a little better than giant. I didnít know konrad I ll have a look to it. Nice to see what we think fixed can still be discussed
    Yeah, Flayer is better against Tabernacle for sure. But, this is where Ichorid shines because of its haste.

    Konrad seems really decent against, as mentioned, Elesh Norn. It also protects your grave from late sweeps.

  7. #1327

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by zzap View Post
    Renaming bad plays as gambles doesn't change anything here. And, it's not a sound strategy by any means. Good players know that Manaless cannot get off the ground until Ichorid and Narco hit the field. Dredge all day with as many Shells as you want; you won't be digging that deep anyways with them. Double surgical or surgical and snap or surgical and dreadhorde on recursive creatures cripples this deck harder than targeting dredgers and gambling that you don't have Street Wraith AND a different dredger in hand, which you naturally pitch next turn anyways and start the engine up. This is all obvious, so I'd suggest against making deck construction choices hoping your opponents don't know how to play against Manaless.

    If you decide to run Shambling Shell for the value and consistency, than that's a different topic
    I am actually really surprised that you haven't seen this, if you do the math on the odds of having Street Wraith in hand or a second Dedger with only 12 in the deck it's not that bad of a chance to win outright on tempo. Most people who sandbag Surgical Extraction get run over because the deck just plows through them with its redundancy fwiw, Hogaak upped that game quite a lot. Letting the deck get rolling is its own risk, IMO.

  8. #1328
    Site Contributor
    Scott's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Virginia
    Posts

    624

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Looks like Manaless got 17th and 45th at GP Atlanta

  9. #1329

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Looks like Manaless got 17th and 45th at GP Atlanta
    Hi. John here. I was 17th place, and I played against 45th place in a mirror match in the last round (table 15).

    I live in SC, and I wanted to play in Atlanta despite never having played Legacy, so I looked for a cheap deck to get in the door. Luckily, I stumbled onto the metagame choice of the day as I saw seas of Blue decks all over. I actually drove down Saturday morning, planning on driving back Saturday night, but did much better than expected and had to change plans. One of my match losses was unambiguously lost to a missed trigger on a Bridge, so a better player than me may very well have made Top8.

    Among other things, I read through posts here to prepare, so I thought I'd stop back by and say thanks.

  10. #1330
    Magic Player

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Boston
    Posts

    155

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by John Tollison View Post
    Hi. John here. I was 17th place, and I played against 45th place in a mirror match in the last round (table 15).

    I live in SC, and I wanted to play in Atlanta despite never having played Legacy, so I looked for a cheap deck to get in the door. Luckily, I stumbled onto the metagame choice of the day as I saw seas of Blue decks all over. I actually drove down Saturday morning, planning on driving back Saturday night, but did much better than expected and had to change plans. One of my match losses was unambiguously lost to a missed trigger on a Bridge, so a better player than me may very well have made Top8.

    Among other things, I read through posts here to prepare, so I thought I'd stop back by and say thanks.
    Congrats. What were your matchups for the 2 days?

  11. #1331

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by John Tollison View Post
    Hi. John here. I was 17th place, and I played against 45th place in a mirror match in the last round (table 15).

    I live in SC, and I wanted to play in Atlanta despite never having played Legacy, so I looked for a cheap deck to get in the door. Luckily, I stumbled onto the metagame choice of the day as I saw seas of Blue decks all over. I actually drove down Saturday morning, planning on driving back Saturday night, but did much better than expected and had to change plans. One of my match losses was unambiguously lost to a missed trigger on a Bridge, so a better player than me may very well have made Top8.

    Among other things, I read through posts here to prepare, so I thought I'd stop back by and say thanks.
    Very cool, congrats on a wonderful outing. Would you mind sharing your deck list, thoughts on the days events?

  12. #1332

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    Congrats. What were your matchups for the 2 days?
    The 3 matches I lost were,

    ANT, 0-2. He ran over me in the first game. In the second, he was forced to Ad Nauseum to 1 life, and... roll the dice again, finding a LED which let him keep going and kill me. It's one of only 2 points in the day that I remember being unlucky.

    Miracles. 1-2(I think). I mis-sideboarded, getting fixated on the possibility of Containment Priest and forgot about RiP.

    Hypergenisis. 1-2. This was very close. My opponent had a couple of significant topdecks, and I missed a Bridge From Below trigger that clearly cost me the match.


    Otherwise, I played... another Miracles deck, 3-4 Sneak and Show decks, a Delver/Depths hybrid, several Temur Delver decks, and the mirror match.

  13. #1333

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Very cool, congrats on a wonderful outing. Would you mind sharing your deck list, thoughts on the days events?
    My starting point was the Acton, MA, list on mtgdecks. I played Lotleth instead of Flayer, and the SB had a 4th contagion over Ashen Rider, and Faerie's over Leylines. I'm not sold on Mindbreak Traps.


    3 Balustrade Spy
    3 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Lotleth Giant
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    2 Golgari Thug
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    3 Prized Amalgam
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Creeping Chill
    3 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    Sideboard
    4 Contagion
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Mindbreak Trap


    My last round opponent was playing Dryad Arbors and Flayer, and no Balustrade Spys.

    This isn't quite the kind of deck I normally play, but I like it well enough and plan to keep it as my Legacy deck for those few events a year when I need one.

  14. #1334
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2012
    Location

    New Jersey
    Posts

    46

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by John Tollison View Post
    My starting point was the Acton, MA, list on mtgdecks. I played Lotleth instead of Flayer, and the SB had a 4th contagion over Ashen Rider, and Faerie's over Leylines. I'm not sold on Mindbreak Traps.


    3 Balustrade Spy
    3 Chancellor of the Annex
    1 Lotleth Giant
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    2 Golgari Thug
    2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    3 Prized Amalgam
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Creeping Chill
    3 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    Sideboard
    4 Contagion
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Mindbreak Trap


    My last round opponent was playing Dryad Arbors and Flayer, and no Balustrade Spys.

    This isn't quite the kind of deck I normally play, but I like it well enough and plan to keep it as my Legacy deck for those few events a year when I need one.
    First off, congrats on your top finish in the event!How did you feel about the changes you made, specifically flayer over giant?

  15. #1335

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ryscott85 View Post
    First off, congrats on your top finish in the event!How did you feel about the changes you made, specifically flayer over giant?
    I never played it with the Flayer. Lotleth just seemed more to the point, with the one big hit. I don't claim to have a feel for the balancing considerations though, and can't offer any real insight.

    There are times the Ashen Rider could've come in. I probably have too much of a bias against singleton SB cards. I'm sure I will try Once Upon a Time. It's the kind of card I'm drawn to. I'll probably put the Ashen rider back in the SB for Show and Tell then. Maybe I won't keep all 4 Faeries since Once Upon a Time can find them. Mindbreak Traps could become Leylines of Sanctity.

  16. #1336
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2012
    Location

    New Jersey
    Posts

    46

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by John Tollison View Post
    I never played it with the Flayer. Lotleth just seemed more to the point, with the one big hit. I don't claim to have a feel for the balancing considerations though, and can't offer any real insight.

    There are times the Ashen Rider could've come in. I probably have too much of a bias against singleton SB cards. I'm sure I will try Once Upon a Time. It's the kind of card I'm drawn to. I'll probably put the Ashen rider back in the SB for Show and Tell then. Maybe I won't keep all 4 Faeries since Once Upon a Time can find them. Mindbreak Traps could become Leylines of Sanctity.
    Thanks! Ha, I actually forgot to ask you on my last post. How did you like the faeries? Iíve seen many use leyline over them, but mulling seems like itíd be very, very bad for this deck,however; it is very potent if you can mill into one.

  17. #1337

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ryscott85 View Post
    Thanks! Ha, I actually forgot to ask you on my last post. How did you like the faeries? Iíve seen many use leyline over them, but mulling seems like itíd be very, very bad for this deck,however; it is very potent if you can mill into one.
    I only brought the Faeries in once, in the last round. The first miracles players I faced commented that he had taken his graveyard hate out, so maybe this is a trend? Mostly, I was just saying that Once Upon a Time could fetch them, so I'd probably drop one.

  18. #1338

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Longtime listener. First time caller.

    I have been testing with Once Upon a Time, and I don't like anything beyond a single copy, because it increases interaction, without a guaranteed consistency of speeding up the deck.

    I also play a different version of the deck than most people. I don't play Creeping Chill (unless I suspect a Depths heavy meta), because it does nothing to assist the Spy combo from coming to fruition. I also don't play Prized Amalgam, because they're too slow, and as a combo deck, I want to win before my opponent can establish themselves. If I wanted to be on the sideways plan, I would play LED Dredge.

    Here is the list I am going to run when OUAT is released:


    MAIN-DECK
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Ichorid
    4 Vine Dryad
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Once Upon a Time
    4 Dread Return

    SIDEBOARD
    4 Faerie Macabre
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Sickening Shoal
    4 Force of Vigor

  19. #1339
    The green Ancestral
    ESG's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2010
    Location

    Seattle, WA
    Posts

    1,137

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by GolgariGlenRoss View Post
    Longtime listener. First time caller.

    I have been testing with Once Upon a Time, and I don't like anything beyond a single copy, because it increases interaction, without a guaranteed consistency of speeding up the deck.

    I also play a different version of the deck than most people.
    Awesome username! Vine Dryad is pretty unorthodox, but it's reasonable fodder for Dread Return and helps the green count after sideboard. What's the logic for Flayer of the Hatebound over Lotleth Giant?

  20. #1340

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Awesome username! Vine Dryad is pretty unorthodox, but it's reasonable fodder for Dread Return and helps the green count after sideboard. What's the logic for Flayer of the Hatebound over Lotleth Giant?
    My logic is that since we are a combo a deck, once we Spy, it often doesn't matter which card is slotted. If we don't combo, I think Flayer affords the deck with a better chance to grind out wins in Plan B mode.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 6 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 5 guests)

  1. Bougnat