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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1361

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I like the 3/1 Giant split. Any opinions on Creeping Chill?

  2. #1362
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Good if you can fit them in. Flip library, drain 12 is pretty nifty.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  3. #1363

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    I like the 3/1 Giant split. Any opinions on Creeping Chill?
    Generally speaking they are bad, anything that doesn't feed Ichorid and Hogaak or activate Nether Shadow needs a really good reason to be in the deck. If you flip off Spy then they are win more, if it costs you an Ichorid/Hogaak/Shadow activation you break even or lose out on damage and it costs you Lotleth pings and Troll counters later on anyway.

    The deck is built on extreme consistency, most of the people who advocate stuff like Flayer and Chill don't play through Crypt effects and squeek out wins fwiw.

  4. #1364
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    You do you boo
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  5. #1365

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Generally speaking they are bad, anything that doesn't feed Ichorid and Hogaak or activate Nether Shadow needs a really good reason to be in the deck. If you flip off Spy then they are win more, if it costs you an Ichorid/Hogaak/Shadow activation you break even or lose out on damage and it costs you Lotleth pings and Troll counters later on anyway.

    The deck is built on extreme consistency, most of the people who advocate stuff like Flayer and Chill don't play through Crypt effects and squeek out wins fwiw.
    Yeah I was thinking about how it doesn't help me pump out recurring creatures which feeds Bridge etc. I think I'm gonna go with Lotleth Giant but Chill doesn't seem worth it.

  6. #1366

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    Yeah I was thinking about how it doesn't help me pump out recurring creatures which feeds Bridge etc. I think I'm gonna go with Lotleth Giant but Chill doesn't seem worth it.
    The most important thing is do not become one of those people who only play the deck in auto-pilot mode and only get wins whenever they're uncontested in game 1, a lot of the skill of the deck comes specifically from being able to play through the soft hate like Surgical Extraction and Bojuka Bog etc.

  7. #1367

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    The most important thing is do not become one of those people who only play the deck in auto-pilot mode and only get wins whenever they're uncontested in game 1, a lot of the skill of the deck comes specifically from being able to play through the soft hate like Surgical Extraction and Bojuka Bog etc.
    Thanks for the advice. I definitely have a lot to learn in terms of playing around hate and grinding out games when I can't combo.
    Last edited by Seymour_Asses; 11-16-2019 at 09:50 AM.

  8. #1368

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What's the opinion on Force of Despair as opposed to Contagion?

    It seems like Force of Despair is better against fast combo like Reanimator or decks that flood the board like Storm and Belcher, but I can't see any downside against fair decks like D&T or Mentor based strategies like Miracles or Stoneblade.

  9. #1369

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Tes Jesus View Post
    What's the opinion on Force of Despair as opposed to Contagion?

    It seems like Force of Despair is better against fast combo like Reanimator or decks that flood the board like Storm and Belcher, but I can't see any downside against fair decks like D&T or Mentor based strategies like Miracles or Stoneblade.
    It's garbage, Sickening Shoal has most of the same benefits and you can top deck it to remove a hate bear that is already on the board.

  10. #1370

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Containment Priest dodges Force of Despair, so that is something to consider.

  11. #1371

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Another option for winning after deck flipping, and can be dread returned:


    Also gets around opponents with hex proof and all that. Not black for ichorid, but is blue for force, obviously.

    Text in case image doesn't link:
    Thassa's oracle - UU. Creature - Merefolk wizard 1/3
    When ~ ETB, look at the top X cards of your library, put one on top and the rest on the bottom, where X is your devotion to blue. If X is greater OR EQUAL than the number of cards in your library, you win the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
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  12. #1372

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I've been out of the game for more than a minute, Wrenn & Six was a thing, and not a thing since I last played.

    What's a general sense of the game? Planning on playing in a tourney in the Northeast soon, debating between this and a storm variant. What is out there to expect, what does Oko do that I may or may not care about or another flavor of the day? What is the typical gy hate being played?

    Thx.

    Expected list:
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Shambling Shell
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Gigapede
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Lotleth Giant
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return

    4 Faerie Macabre
    1 Gigapede
    4 Force of Vigor
    3 Sickening Shoal
    3 Contagion

  13. #1373
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    I've been out of the game for more than a minute, Wrenn & Six was a thing, and not a thing since I last played.

    What's a general sense of the game? Planning on playing in a tourney in the Northeast soon, debating between this and a storm variant. What is out there to expect, what does Oko do that I may or may not care about or another flavor of the day? What is the typical gy hate being played?
    Leyline of the Void is much more common now due to Hogaak and BR Reanimator, and decks that don't normally play Leyline, such as BUG Control/Midrange or Dark Maverick, sometimes have it alongside other hate. Personally, I would play the Storm variant over Manaless because I don't like the beat-the-hate guessing game and because protected Leylines are GG. UW decks are running some configuration of Containment Priest (mainly to hit Sneak and Show) and either Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction or both. Oko is a nonfactor vs. Manaless, but its impact on the metagame as a whole has led to more people playing Hogaak, and that has led to more graveyard hate.

  14. #1374
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Some people in MTGO Leagues really don't like niceties from Manaless opponents


  15. #1375
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Some people in MTGO Leagues really don't like niceties from Manaless opponents

    Wow. What was your opponent playing? Personally, I've enjoyed almost all the games I've ever played against Manaless Dredge with a wide variety of decks. It's a very fun matchup. The games only tend to be uninteresting if I have Leyline of the Void.

  16. #1376
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Wow. What was your opponent playing? Personally, I've enjoyed almost all the games I've ever played against Manaless Dredge with a wide variety of decks. It's a very fun matchup. The games only tend to be uninteresting if I have Leyline of the Void.
    Astrolabe Miracles.

    Same. I almost always enjoy playing Manaless, against Manaless, and with and against weird decks in general.

    He's a former Eternal Weekend champion too. Grumpy grinders/spikes gonna grump \_(ツ)_/

  17. #1377
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Considering the misery most of us experience when playing against the slow grind of Miracles I feel this is poetic justice. I'm of the same mindset: I love fringe decks and anything home-brewed, to the point I have more fun losing to a deck like that than winning against a hum-drum tier deck.

    Opponent: *adjusting monacle*
    "I do believe I have the best control deck of the format, why are you dueling me with this peasant manaless dredge nonsense?"

    Player: "Because it steamrolls your ultra-meta-gamed control list."
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  18. #1378

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hello there, long time enthusiast of the deck. Registered only to share the list I ran to success at my local weekly event and do a brief round recap.
    First of all, the idea behind my list is to try the best of both worlds and merge the blue and green sideboards into one.
    The point of my attempt is to try and fix the blue sideboard's innability to answer leyline with the green's obligation to start over from square one after clearing RIP or some other yard resetting piece of hate. Plus, I feel blue also has better chances at fighting opposing combo decks.
    So without further ado, my 75:

    Dredgers
    3 Shambling Shell
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Grave Troll

    Recurring Creatures
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Ichorid
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Utility
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Phantasmagorian
    1 Progenitus

    Combo Package
    3 Balustrade Spy
    4 Dread Return
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    Sideboard
    3 Serum Powder
    4 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Force of Will

    Card Choices:
    -Balustrade Spy: "Spy in a blue sided list? I-Is he maaad?!?!?!". I know, I know. The thing is that I love having our little "I win" button around and I'm too paranoid of not finding Flayer when trying the combo finish. Plus, I did manage to fit 17 blue cards in the 75 while keeping him in.
    -Progenitus: Serves the dual purpose of supporting all Forces and also allowing for some extra turns of leeway after Spy'ing (also turning opposing SnTs and Exhumes into free wins doesn't hurt).
    -Flayer: Better than Lotleth giant before Spy. After Spy the extra Dread Return needed for him to do Lotleth's job should never be relevant (even if we use the last DR on him) since Hogaak/Amalgams can finish the job in the same turn. Plus, any opposing removals can be Therapy'd away before commiting him to the board, so that too is less of an issue than having the slot be usefull more often.
    -Once Upon a Time: Currently I don't own a playset and, since they're 30+ bucks in Brazil, I want to be sure they won't be banned in Modern and plummet in price BEFORE I spend cash on them (Hogaak playset says hi). But they'd be there replacing 1 Shell, 2 Hogaaks and a 4th slot I haven't decided yet (probably Progenitus, but I rather not if I can).

    Quick tourney recap:
    17 players, 4 rounds.

    Round 1: Fast Depths 0-2
    G1. Opponent wins the dice roll and takes the play. I mull a Dredgerless hand and find Troll and Wraith. T1 he plays Urborg and accels into a land tutor, I draw pass. T2 he drops Thespian and passes, I draw and discard Troll. T3 he drops Depths and a Petal and passes, I Wraith on his 2nd mainphase finding Narco, Amalgam, Spy, Return, Ichorid and Phantasmagorian (sweet). He makes Marit Lage and sacs Petal to Crop Rotation Urborg into maindeck Bojuka (O_O).
    G2. Figuring my best shot is to combo him protected from Crop I side out Phantasmagorians ,Therapies and 3 Hoggaks for the blue Forces and Powder (Leyline'd be a loss even if I FoV'd it). I Serum a hand with no Forces into one with FoN, Amalgam and a Dredger but I'm ultimately too slow to do anything even after ignoring a possible Rotation to stop one of his tutors from getting his combo.
    0-1

    Round 2: Esper Stoneblade 2-1
    G1. No relevant play from opponent. Ichorids, Shadows and Amalgams drive it home through a Jitte'd Stoneforge.
    G2. Fearing RIP and Cage I side out the whole combo and Phantasmagorians for the full set of Forces. T1 he puts me on the play, drops a land and ponders. T2 I discard Troll and pass, he Surgicals and protects it from FoW with Spell Pierce. I'm holding 2 more Trolls in hand as my only dredgers... An eternity of draw go later I find no more Forces and restart the engine with Imp but he Surgicals again with Snapcaster and gets a clock going with it and TNN (i think).
    G3. On the play again I keep a hand with FoN, Amalgam and Thug while he goes down to 5. T1 He land Ponders. T2 I discard Thug, he tries to Cage unprotected, which I counter. T3 Thug finds Ichorid and Imp, he continues to dig. After 2 or so turns I dredge 3 Therapies while having 2 Ichorids, with the 1st I name RIP only to find Containment Priest, which he promptly discards before I even announce the 2nd and then concedes as I have'im at 9 life.
    1-1

    Round 3: Sneak and Show 2-0
    G1. Being put on the draw (sweet lost dice rolls) I keep a slow hand with Thug. Not going fast either we go until he drops Sneak Attack and cantrips on the following turn. I bring 2 Shadows and Ichorid and dredge Narco with an Amalgam while having another already in grave. After attacking I DR a 9/9 Troll making 3 zombies. He then gets shocked after I announce that after Troll both Amalgams, not only the 1st anymore, get into play putting me at a total of 7 creatures and out of Grisel and Emmy's reach thanks to Narco. He proceeds to Emmy and leave me with 4 zombies, enough to finish him with my hasty dudes.
    G2. Deciding to keep the combo in I side out Phantasmagorians and Hogaaks for the blue Forces. Being put on the draw again he goes down to 6 and I decide to keep a hand with a naked FoN, Troll, Imp and Spy. He proceeds to play Tormod's Crypt, Island and pass. I proceed to draw a blue card and discard Imp with the idea of keeping Troll for after Tormod's eventual break. T2 he Ancient Tombs into a naked SnT, which I counter (sadly looking at Spy) since Tormod's still up, and proceeds to break Tormod onto my lone Imp. I draw go and pray to the Dredge gods for him to have another SnT...which he does. T3 he answers my prayers by SnT'ing Grisel while I show him Spy. After hearing about Progenitus and my Narcos who'd bring their Prized friends along he draws 7 (almost giving me an anxiety attack with the prospect of another Tormod) and finds a Surgical, but it is ultimately useless against so many targets.
    2-1

    Round 3: Merfolk 2-0
    G1. Being put on the draw ('dem great 'lost' dicerolls again) I have a slow start that goes on and on until I'm about to be downed by two lords and a TNN wearing a Jitte (used to keep my board empty) while without Bridges, when I finally find 2 and make 2 zombies (Jitte at 1 counter) with a Therapy, that showed me a Vial. The tokens give me another turn by blocking the lords and allowing me to combo finish the following turn.
    G2. Again keeping the combo I side out Phantasmagorians, Hogaaks and 3 Therapies for the blue Forces and the 3 Powders. Being put on the draw again I decide to keep a Force'less hand with a Thug and 2 Wraiths (rationalizing that in this BR Reanimator infested times Surgical/Faerie Macabre is loads more likely than Cage) and my opponent goes down to 5. I play it safe for 2 turns by keeping both Wraiths to answer an eventual targeted hate until I find an Imp and decide to commit one of them. It goes through no problem and I figure that's too much even if he has it, so I commit the 2nd one and combo him on my turn.
    3-1

    There was no 4-0 so that puts me among the top results of the day.
    I feel that, without OUAT 15 dredgers is too light. Too many opening hands without a dredger (not only during the event).
    Overall the deck once again shows it CAN and WILL perform among tried and tested meta decks, BUT it feels quite unstable in the regard that, while the deck can certainly fight hate, I feel it depends on said hate being unaccompanied by further pressure/interaction. Also it bugs me to no end to have won through such crude mistakes such as the Sneak and Show match. Don't get me wrong, I love free wins as much as the next guy but it blurs the line between the merits of the deck and the demerits of the opposition. I truly and wholly hope there'll be a day when this deck has enough tools to make it less "Do or Die" and have a more stable performance.

    P.S.-This experience made me sure of one thing.
    ONCE UPON A TIME IS A MUST FOR BOTH CONSISTENCY AND SPEED!!!
    Last edited by idc1993; 02-07-2020 at 10:03 AM.

  19. #1379
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    @idc1993: Congrats on the result! I run the exact same 60!
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  20. #1380

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What are people's opinions on dredgerless hands with Once Upon a Time?
    The card kind of works like a mulligan, but if it doesn't hit it whithin the 5 cards or the following one, then it's a BIG screw.
    Also, what about hands that have a dredger but not Troll? Discard and OUAT after to look for Wraith or do it before to expand the chances of a bigger dredger at the cost of showing the opponent what we're playing?

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