Yup. This deck really doesn't opperate without bridge. I would say half my wins are due to dread returning a spy, without bridge the first dread return gets countered and then what?? Bridge pretty much negates a lot of blue decks by saying" I hope you have more than just one counter, other wise you lose". The tokens from bridge provide so much value when your yard contains therapys and dread returns. Like slave said, play without bridge and see what happens.Originally Posted by slave
LOL. That's a bit harsh isn't it?
Feel free to test your theory out. Omit Bridges from the main and see where your win% goes.
Anyways;
What I was talking about is speed, in regards to the *reliance* on bridges, to beat fast opponents in Legacy.
Sorry if I didn't type it in exactly that wording. The point is, without Bridges in the yard, you need quite a lot to go your way in order to beat someone playing a fast deck. That's not going to happen regularly in a deck where we can't mulligan or tutor, and where we don't run any form of filter.
My reason for believing this is based on experience. I've been playing Manaless and LED-Dredge for years.
My thoughts on Pharaoh is from the perspective of having tested it myself on numerous occasions in tourney and casual settings, and so far I see few reasons to include Pharaoh in the main given the anti-synergy with Bridges. From the side is another story.
A version of Manaless with Pharaoh and no Bridges might be a possibility, but I would have to assume it would be even more glass-cannon than Manaless already is.
I don't think he meant Bridge is useless, its that Manaless doesn't need to rely on them as much as LEDDredge. I've had my Bridges removed and Extirpated often and it never really hurt. I was way more pissed when my opponent would go for Ichorid and co.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
Is the general consensus now that the Blue version is the best?
From many people yes, but it has yet to show itself in any good large tournament placings as so far I am aware.
The Doomsday Codex
We're catching bullets in our teeth,
Its hard to do but they're so sweet.
And if they take a couple out,
We try to work things out.....
Meow.
Tough to say. Yes, the blue version can get you out of some sticky situations when fighting hate. I also believe people havnt really adjusted to the fact that manaless now plays counters which can totally catch our opponents off guard, not to mention not everyone has play tested a fair amount against the deck. Ive had some recent success with the balustrade spy version and just comboing off through a counters or two. I feel hate at the moment is pretty low, maybe two pieces in some boards.....they hace to find it remember. The spy version is attractive at the moment and a good amount of my wins have come from the combo. Although, in the finals last weekend against miracles games 2 and 3 I was blown out by priest and rip. Question: is it possible to play spy version game one and then board in whirlpool and counter package for game two?
What I would like to know, is whether the spy version is really that much quicker than the blue version.
The blue version can be as quick as the spy one. 3 draws may be enough to win the game, and whirpool rider usualy gets more. Sometimes you'll have no cards in hand due to a Phantasmagorian discard or whatever. Thats why i use Spinx of Lost Truths!
I play the spy version with a blue sideboard and it works fine. Some time i skip the "the blue sb" game 2(after i won game1 ) and keep the surpice for the game 3.
Heres my list.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Serra Avatar
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
44 creatures
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
16 other spells
Sideboard
3 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Force of Will
Thank you for the list. I assume the chancellors, serra avatar and spys come out for the forces and whirlpool riders. Depending on the match up you then must shave a few things for the shoals; wondering whats your strategy? Hows the serra avatar been working, I assume theres a fair amount of snt in your meta? Im gonna play manaless at scg worcester next weekend, wondering if its worth it to -1 spy and +1 progenitus?
Better than Green definitely, but blue the best? It's my preference for sure, but I'm with you Jimmythegreek, it's a tough call to make.
I don't think Spy is necessarily faster, but seems to have more potential for it, by being able to run both Probes and Chancellor's.
Interesting thought.
I like the surprise factor > has it worked well for you BJeagle?
Seeing as you're running such an inflexible side, have you missed not running any of the usual suspects like Mindbreak Traps, Surgical Extractions, Faerie Macabre's etc.?
You can easily run Probes and Chancellors in the blue version.
Im playing in a quite small legacygroup at the moment, no more surprises... Hehe. But it worked well the first local turnanent. My sb is allin to the "Red graveyards hate" thinking of changing the contagion for mindbreaktraps for the storm games....
So ill be attending scg worcester and would enjoy hearing peoples predictions of the meta along with help to devise a sideboard based on these predictions. Im on the spy list, so no counter spells here. I also feel that there will be a fair number of containment priests, actually good for us considering we run 3-4 contagion. Specifically, what cards can we bring in against omni show? Overall I feel dredge has been a bit forgotten by our foes and its time for the boogey-man to do its thing.
Hollywood, what's up?
I could ask anyone but I want your opinion since you played through the golden age like myself; why manaless? What gains do you see by playing without lands and basically, without blue. Does the strategy make your bad matchups better?
I have not played Dredge since Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman were both printed. What is the best way to beat the strategies?
*BTW still have a foil Dakmor Salvage you signed for me back forever ago.
Now playing real formats.
Hey, long time :)
I haven't really mentioned it since this last event, but I've officially retired from competitive Magic play. Magic doesn't interest me anymore at all really and I'm just moving on to other things in my life. Zero interest in coming back and I feel like I've contributed all that I can to the game. It's not one of those things you openly advertise, because it's really just a game. But, since I vested over two-thirds of my life into the game and tried to make a difference in the way the game is played, Manaless just happened to be a deck that I picked up in the tail-end of my playing days and did really well with it. It was more the less a deck that deviated from the norm and gave me a chance to try something different. If that's your cup of tea, go for it.
First off, I would like to thank you for all your work regarding the new primer and your innovations (along with others) within the dredge arcetype. Change is the only constant and change is a positive thing, sometimes we gotta do what just feels right and taking a step back from something you love takes real courage. Your sentiments about manaless "deviating from the norm" felt spot on.........win, lose or draw the deck just does stuff in a way that not only negates blue (unapologetically despise blue) strategies but leaves our opponents with half a deck of dead cards under their noses. Monsters, more monsters....that's manaless dredge. Thanks, bona fortunae!
p.s. Hollywood, if you were to play this weekend at scg Worcester and you were to play a spy list what would your sideboard look like?
Good retreat so Mr Keller
Thanks for your passion to make this thread living. It was always a pleasure to read manaless things when on bus to work.
Wow. I may not post much, but I lurk a whole hell of a lot. It truly is a sight to behold, one of this forum's greats is moving on for greener pastures. Hollywood, you don't know me but I recognize your name. On behalf of all the other lurkers - more importantly, all the people who will come to this thread for help - thank you for everything!
About SCG Worcester - I think the metagame has shifted enough for Dredge to make a top 8! Go for it!
Finished 5-4 losing my win and in for day 2 against miracles. Started the day 0-2 so I had to crawl back to have a chance for day 2. Losses were to elves twice, a deck that hardcasted elesh norn turn three and miracles. I beat led dredge, reanimator, affinity, ru delver and burn. Manaless is well positioned and my feeling/observations from this weekend was that we absolutely have game against miracles and priest is being played in BIG numbers. Contagion was the only sideboard card I really needed or saw. Super shitty report, sorry. Any questions I will gladly answer.
Why would you say Manaless is well positioned when there is so much gravehate right now (people think that it somehow counters DTT).
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
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