[Podcast] Everyday Eternal 37: The Miracle Men

[thecrav]

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In Episode 37 of Everyday Eternal, Matt, Sam, and Julian are joined by Prague Eternal runner-up Tomáš Vlček and two-time legacy grand prix top 8-er Philipp Schönegger to discuss the deck that brought them their wins: Miracles.

Time stamps:
2:27 – History: CounterTop Thresh / CounterTop Goyf
4:39 – History: CounterTop Thopters
7:57 – History: May 2012: The Miracles are printed
18:20 – What colors to play: Is UW enough?
21:49 – Current builds: Stoneblade, Legends, Ponder
30:09 – Would you play Counterbalancewith no Miracles?
32:34 – Would you play Miracles with no Counterbalance?
34:24 – Should Sensei’s Divining Top be banned?
43:09 – Miracles deck construction
50:39 – Dig Through Time
53:25 – Landbase
1:02:03 – Matchups: The Mirror
1:16:33 – Matchups: Death and Taxes
1:25:30 – Matchups: OmniTell
1:35:40 – Matchups: RUG Delver / Canadian Threshold
1:42:22 – BGx / Abrupt Decay Decks
1:48:29 – Outro

[Phelix]

This is pure gold and should be sold at 50$ per listen, the profits going to some poor orphan child still playing standard. (or that 8 year old girl whos feet didnt touch the ground, playing dredge at GP NJ)

[Barook]

I think the point that non-blue decks would suffer if Top is banned is overblown. What nonblue decks do realistically run Top if you disregard janky brews?

- Painter
- Nic Fit
- 12 Post

And while both Nic Fit and 12 Post would take a hit, both could still run Sylvan Library instead which isn't too shabby either. Painter would be the only non-blue deck that would actually suffer under this.

[thecrav]

This is pure gold and should be sold at 50$ per listen, the profits going to some poor orphan child still playing standard. (or that 8 year old girl whos feet didnt touch the ground, playing dredge at GP NJ)

Feel free to PayPal me that $50! :P

[maharis]

This was a great cast. I love long, wonky discussions about eternal magic. I hope for more extended deck techs like this in the future.

I was troubled by the characterization of Miracles as a deck that practically eliminates variance. If this is actually true, and not just a product of the players featured on the cast generally making the right decisions with cantrips/Top, clearly the deck is too strong for the format. That’s different than just being the “best deck,” which it probably is, but some form of UWx control has been the best deck in the game’s history for its entire existence so that’s fine with me.

But I don’t like banning Top. I think if you’re going to go after this deck Counterbalance or Terminus should be the target. The decks mentioned above – Nic Fit, 12post, and Painter – shouldn’t lose access to their most important card because Counterbalance is obnoxious (compare to Chalice of the Void) or Terminus is too good at preventing the deck from being clocked. These three decks may not be huge components of the metagame, but they do present a limiter on the strength of some archetypes. Painter in particular is brutal for BUG decks, which are the second-best decks in the format after Miracles and also play the key card that invalidates Counterbalance.

IMO Counterbalance is much more of the culprit when it comes to extending rounds anyway since it is the ultimate durdle card. You sit behind it and move your “air” around until you win or draw. It also encourages multiple top activations. I know that the cast said that Miracles is an SDT deck that happens to play CB and miracles. If that’s the case, then banning CB would allow some form of miracles deck to still exist while preventing so many feel-bad moments of just getting dragged to the grave under a CB lock.

Further, banning Top would probably increase the bluing of the format. Cloudpost is already a UG deck; taking Top away would probably end up giving it Ponder or something. BUG Nic Fit already doesn’t play Top. And Painter even has a UR version that would just take over the role. In addition, taking Top out of the Miracles deck would likely have the ancillary side effect of just creating more Stoneblade control decks, reducing the “strategic diversity” of the format.

[Barook]

These three decks may not be huge components of the metagame, but they do present a limiter on the strength of some archetypes. Painter in particular is brutal for BUG decks, which are the second-best decks in the format after Miracles and also play the key card that invalidates Counterbalance.

Further, banning Top would probably increase the bluing of the format. Cloudpost is already a UG deck; taking Top away would probably end up giving it Ponder or something. BUG Nic Fit already doesn’t play Top. And Painter even has a UR version that would just take over the role. In addition, taking Top out of the Miracles deck would likely have the ancillary side effect of just creating more Stoneblade control decks, reducing the “strategic diversity” of the format.

As I said above, the collateral damage on the non-Painter decks should be minimal due to the existance of Sylvan Library. Besides, Painter is hardly played anyway. "You can't ban X because it makes a deck that has less than 1% meta presence worse" seems like a terrible reasoning if another deck turns out to be really problematic.

Would Stoneblade take over Miracle's spot if it became unplayable? Most likely. If that reduces or increases strategic diversity is a different topic, since you disregard Terminus alone being a HUGE format suppressor, and that's not even counting the Countertop package which Miracles can use to fight off combo. My main concern would rather be Elves taking over the format without Miracles cutting them down to size.

[Julian23]

Without Miracles, Elves would totally overrun everything for a while. I would assume people would start playing a ton more of Elves hate, which also isn't really a meta you wanna play in. In the end, stuff like OmniTell would probably just reign supreme.

I think nerfing Miracles and Elves, while also doing *something* to prevent the format to drift off into Shardless-vs-Deathblade-vs-Esperblade durdle, would make for a once again great environment. Right now Elves is slightly favored against most Blade decks, but in a meta where Elves became public enemy #1, this would quickly change.

[maharis]

As I said above, the collateral damage on the non-Painter decks should be minimal due to the existance of Sylvan Library. Besides, Painter is hardly played anyway. "You can't ban X because it makes a deck that has less than 1% meta presence worse" seems like a terrible reasoning if another deck turns out to be really problematic.

Would Stoneblade take over Miracle's spot if it became unplayable? Most likely. If that reduces or increases strategic diversity is a different topic, since you disregard Terminus alone being a HUGE format suppressor, and that's not even counting the Countertop package which Miracles can use to fight off combo. My main concern would rather be Elves taking over the format without Miracles cutting them down to size.

Just because there's a decent card at replicating the effect doesn't mean its a fit for every deck. Sylvan Library and Deed are a nonbo, for example, and Cloudpost decks, if they didn't just play a better blue cantrip, would probably play Ancient Stirrings. Mono-red Painter would have little to nothing to lean on unless there's a solid Welder/Looting build out there.

And while these decks may be a small percentage of the meta, they all have one thing in common: They are unique decks that really show off the breadth of what's possible in Legacy, having solid matchups against several meta decks while not being overpowered. Many decks that play SDT don't max out on the set -- only Miracles really has to -- and that's because of Counterbalance. The CB-Top interaction has been overpowered at multiple points in Legacy history and it would be better to take it out which would probably free up plenty of decks as well.

If Terminus is the problem, then ban that. If Brainstorm is unbannable in this format, though, Top should be as well. I am in favor of having a deck in the format that abuses the Miracle mechanic, just not one that does so while being excessively durdly and unfun while so powerful it's almost wrong to not play it. That being said, I don't think Miracles is there quite yet. 11% meta penetration per mtgtop8 isn't exactly oppressive. And there are opportunity costs to playing Miracles over a long tournament.

That actually reminds me, I also think slow play should be targeted more heavily. When someone activates a top or casts Ponder or Brainstorm I start counting in my head, if they are still durdling when I hit 5 without saying "just a second" or in some other way acknowledging that they are aware of the time they are taking I ask them to move on. We have to police ourselves a bit here.

[Kathal]

If they ban Top I will quit Legacy. May sound a little bit harsh, but "my" deck would die from this (DDFT) and this deck is the only reason why I started Legacy.

But overall, I don't really care, what happens to Miracle. Many people mean, that that deck needs a ban, maybe they are right, I just don't know the answer.

Greetings,
Kathal

PS: Great Podcast through!

[Sloshthedark]

Without Miracles, Elves would totally overrun everything for a while. I would assume people would start playing a ton more of Elves hate, which also isn't really a meta you wanna play in. In the end, stuff like OmniTell would probably just reign supreme.

I think nerfing Miracles and Elves, while also doing *something* to prevent the format to drift off into Shardless-vs-Deathblade-vs-Esperblade durdle, would make for a once again great environment. Right now Elves is slightly favored against most Blade decks, but in a meta where Elves became public enemy #1, this would quickly change.

How is it not great a enviroment already? There will never be a format where everyone is happy, I'd love to play legacy of 2010 but this ain't happening (not that everyone was happy, but I was)... As a Storm player I don't think Miracles is OP (also do not have high opinion on Elves breaking anything)... and SDT is one of the most interesting and "fun" card designs IMO

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

That actually reminds me, I also think slow play should be targeted more heavily. When someone activates a top or casts Ponder or Brainstorm I start counting in my head, if they are still durdling when I hit 5 without saying "just a second" or in some other way acknowledging that they are aware of the time they are taking I ask them to move on. We have to police ourselves a bit here.

You can do this but it will not help you. 5 Seconds is not a time which is concidered to long and since the rules say that slow play is

Players must take their turns in a timely fashion regardless of the complexity of the play situation and adhere to time limits specified for the tournament. Players must maintain a pace to allow the match to be finished in the announced time limit. Stalling is not acceptable. Players may ask a judge to watch their game for slow play; such a request will be granted if feasible.

as you can find in the section 5.5 of the comprehensive Rules. I would just continue to ponder as long as it not crosses the line of the time I have for my turn and this should be 2 minutes or so.
So only one exception could be made which is the Horsemen paragraph

A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions... It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

But 5 seconds for a Ponder is totaly ok and not slow play. In addtion to that since you count in your head you can´t prove that you ciounted right. So what we should do to decrease the slow play perchentage is playing with watches and stop the time he takes than you can actually call a jugde and prove that he is slowplaying other ways are just guessing and have not guarntee to be sucessfull.

[Julian23]

2 minutes or so.

2 minutes for a decision is way beyond anything reasonable and absolutely unacceptable. You should always watch the round clock and remind your opponent to make a play once 30 seconds have pased. At 45 seconds (and that's already pushing it!) you should call a judge. I know that you were referring to "the time for your turn" but something like that is irrelevant. As long as you're progressing the game, there is now upper limit to how long your turn can take.

[nedleeds]

You people really consider shit like top, terminus or ponder more powerful or ubiquitous than brainstorm? You must be stoned or trolling or a stoned troll.

[sdematt]

I'm sorry Sean, are you a fan of banning Brainstorm or something? I didn't know.

That's a totally separate discussion. We were talking in the cast about what makes Miracles tick. Brainstorm is definitely a card to talk about, but the discussion is so vast that it's not worth mentioning at this juncture for this discussion.

I'm fairly certain you can easily build a lovely Jund deck that knocks the living stuffing out of Miracles if you don't mind losing your combo matchups more often. Same with most BG(x, where X isn't blue) builds.

-Matt

[Megadeus]

Im about an hour through the cast right now and I'll probably listen to the rest at work later. I think Terminus being gone (or banned or whatever) would probably weaken the deck to a degree of it having to maybe play other things like EE or Supreme Verdict while allowing other strategies to crop up again. Zoo (which is already not good without Terminus) might make at least a small comeback, and Maverick certainly could get another fighting chance in the format. That is truly the card that I hate the most in the deck. Otherwise I just hate the deck because a lot of the less experienced players are extremely slow with the deck and draw out the rounds, which you guys did address. The players who know what they are doing seem to very rarely draw a round. But there is at least one guy who I see at almost every local large event plays miracles and goes to time almost every round, and I've seen many others pick up the deck and take forever as well and it can be frustrating. It's not that they are intentionally slow playing, just that they are slow players in general.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

Julian 23
2 minutes for a decision is way beyond anything reasonable and absolutely unacceptable. You should always watch the round clock and remind your opponent to make a play once 30 seconds have pased. At 45 seconds (and that's already pushing it!) you should call a judge. I know that you were referring to "the time for your turn" but something like that is irrelevant. As long as you're progressing the game, there is now upper limit to how long your turn can take.

you are absolutley right with that. 2 Minutes for one decision is to much by far. Yes you should remind you oppnent after 30 seconds and call a jugde when he is not reactting. The thing I wanted to show is that the rules are not backing upt something liek I count to 5 and demand that you doe something while I have no proof or rule which is backing me up to in the assupmtion that you play slow each time you don´t say one second please. ^^

But yeah your are right 2 minutes are far to much.

[nedleeds]

I'm sorry Sean, are you a fan of banning Brainstorm or something? I didn't know.

-Matt

With respect to the refuse currently banned I am. But you can't have an honest discussion about 'what to ban in miracles' without starting there. Good luck making them playable with Scroll Rack, I have tried.

[Julian23]

With respect to the refuse currently banned I am. But you can't have an honest discussion about 'what to ban in miracles' without starting there. Good luck making them playable with Scroll Rack, I have tried.

Yeah, but this is about information and entertainment. Everyone is aware of how busted Brainstorm is, we already did several episodes on that.

[maharis]

Hello, you are absolutley right with that. 2 Minutes for one decision is to much by far. Yes you should remind you oppnent after 30 seconds and call a jugde when he is not reactting. The thing I wanted to show is that the rules are not backing upt something liek I count to 5 and demand that you doe something while I have no proof or rule which is backing me up to in the assupmtion that you play slow each time you don´t say one second please. ^^ But yeah your are right 2 minutes are far to much.

Here's the thing though: I've been doing this for a couple months and it's never been an issue. 5 seconds is more than enough time to inquire with your opponent. Even if it's just an "OK?" People do space out.

Listen to the cast when Matt mimes a top activation. It's about 5 seconds and everyone else immediately says it's close to too long. IMO 30 seconds to make a decision is way too long. This is MTG, not a nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

[thecrav]

This is MTG, not a nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Yea but we do refer to our big creatures as bombs!