GP Kyoto Day 2 Meta breakdown, the future of Legacy?

[Tokugawa]

Does anybody have the deck list of YOUSUKE MORINAGA? Mentor without white mana seams to be incorrect!

http://coverage.mtg-jp.com/gpkyo15/article/014842/

According to the report, the "Monastery mentor" in the list should be "Monastery swiftspear". Just some input mistake.

[Aggro_zombies]

Let's keep discussion of whether or not Brainstorm is the devil in the B&R Thread, okay? Quarantining that shit is what that thread is for.

[M+1]

This was the first Legacy GP in Japan, in all of Asia afaik, ever. Many of the participants might never have played with Brainstorm at a premier event like this, ever.
Can you really blame them for wanting to?

Also, that Omnitell mirror match in the semis. Epic.

[JDK]

Japanese REALLY like tentacles.

[Dice_Box]

Haha. That's gold.

[TheArchitect]

What the fuck is the Grixis Delver lists, and why are they so dominant compared to (not rug/bug) delver variants?

Why isn't there ANY UWR Delver? That seems... unexpected.

Grixis is just UR with tasigur and potential hand disruption from the board, to beat Omnitell, or?

Its not just a Japan thing, In the upstate NY area I have been playing against Grixis more than any other delver deck since young pyromancer was printed (except for the brief surge of UR during the treasure cruise era). I don't play MTGO but I've noticed grixis has been one of the top decks for a while now as well. How have people not seen this deck?

The lists vary, some have deathrite. Some are just UR with a splash for therapy and 1 ofs.

[Barook]

I don't play MTGO but I've noticed grixis has been one of the top decks for a while now as well. How have people not seen this deck?

I always assumed that was due to budget reasons since the bigger part of said Grixis Delver decks don't run Wasteland.

[sdematt]

Grixis plays a lot more like Treasure Cruise era UR than current era UWR or RUG. You want all your colours, and you're not on a Stifle-Waste gameplan. You're on value-town gameplan. I heard there was also a ton of Burn in the meta. Miracles/OmniTell seem like good choices in that case.

This would have also been a great tournament for Two Towers Nic Fit. Such Lightning Bolt can't beat Siege Rhino!

-Matt

[TheArchitect]

I always assumed that was due to budget reasons since the bigger part of said Grixis Delver decks don't run Wasteland.

I think of those lists are really more like UR delver thats splashing black for tasiger and SB stuff. Personally I think the ones with deathrite, stifle and wasteland are better but both are performing very well. It took people a REALLY long time to realize young pyromancer was good, so while a lot of grixis lists now just look like a post-TC ban evolutions of UR, grixis delver has actually been good for a long time.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'm going to make a bold statement - I think these Japanese players are way ahead of the curve on Legacy tech and deckbuilding. The Japanese flavor of Delver decks feels lean, fast, and generally superior to the midrangy crap we try to jam into our Delver decks in the US. Also these OmniTell lists are the real deal, and I think Dig makes them outclass Sneak and Show by quite a bit. I think people would benefit from taking a close look at the Japanese Legacy decks and begin thinking outside the box a bit in deckbuilding.

[Barook]

I'm going to make a bold statement - I think these Japanese players are way ahead of the curve on Legacy tech and deckbuilding. The Japanese flavor of Delver decks feels lean, fast, and generally superior to the midrangy crap we try to jam into our Delver decks in the US. Also these OmniTell lists are the real deal, and I think Dig makes them outclass Sneak and Show by quite a bit. I think people would benefit from taking a close look at the Japanese Legacy decks and begin thinking outside the box a bit in deckbuilding.

The Japanese are well-known for running weird shit all the time. Those Omni lists are nothing special on MODO.

16 lands Delver is ballsy, though.

[Dice_Box]

I will agree to that. Feels more like revision and refinement and less like innovation.

[twndomn]

Japanese REALLY like tentacles.

You sir, have won the Internet.

[MGB]

I think more than anything else - what is really relevant here, and what we really should be taking away from this event, is that every single deck in the top 8 (except for the RUG Delver deck and the ANT deck) played 2-4 Dig Through Time.

Dig Through Time might just be underplayed in Legacy for as powerful it has the potential to be.

[Dice_Box]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Time to break out the REBs again".

[Barook]

I think more than anything else - what is really relevant here, and what we really should be taking away from this event, is that every single deck in the top 8 (except for the RUG Delver deck and the ANT deck) played 2-4 Dig Through Time.

Dig Through Time might just be underplayed in Legacy for as powerful it has the potential to be.

Well, is it that much worse than TC? While it costs to cast and nets you one less cards, it digs deeper, increasing the chance to get cards you actually want, and it can be fired off at instant speed.

[btm10]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Time to break out the REBs again".

Indeed. Though it's not like REB was ever bad. Something like that Jund list from Brazilian Nationals during the Cruise era would've rocked this Top 8, and I'm increasingly surprised that Jund isn't played more. Also, the fact that people are playing Sneak over Omni in the States is beyond me.

[nedleeds]

Because Jund has to mulligan, and can't unmulligan a bad hand with the cantrip cartel. Over a long event like a GP Kyoto or any GP really it's going to end up with enough awful keeps to incur a few losses, in addition to the other things that happen through the course of play (mistakes, losing the roll, bad matchup, flooding out). Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere would have also slaughtered this top 8 like lambs but good luck competing against cantrip.dec over ~15 rounds.

[btm10]

Because Jund has to mulligan, and can't unmulligan a bad hand with the cantrip cartel. Over a long event like a GP Kyoto or any GP really it's going to end up with enough awful keeps to incur a few losses, in addition to the other things that happen through the course of play (mistakes, losing the roll, bad matchup, flooding out). Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere would have also slaughtered this top 8 like lambs but good luck competing against cantrip.dec over ~15 rounds.

I chose Jund specifically because it can support variance reducers like Sylvan Library and Bob, and the Brazilian list in particular because it also had Top. None of these are as good as blue cantrips, but you probably don't need this at the full 8 cantrip base to win consistently. This is a discussion for another thread though.

[maharis]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Time to break out the REBs again".

I played against 10 maindeck REB effects in 4 rounds at eternal extravaganza. There's a reason volcanic island is the most expensive dual now.

Well, is it that much worse than TC? While it costs to cast and nets you one less cards, it digs deeper, increasing the chance to get cards you actually want, and it can be fired off at instant speed.

I agree, the card is ridiculous.

I chose Jund specifically because it can support variance reducers like Sylvan Library and Bob, and the Brazilian list in particular because it also had Top. None of these are as good as blue cantrips, but you probably don't need this at the full 8 cantrip base to win consistently. This is a discussion for another thread though.

The Brazil list had Top because it was playing Chains of Mephistopheles.

Jund with MB REBs and extra library manipulation gives up a lot of percentage points that it usually has against Blade and Miracles decks, I believe.