What Decks are 50-50 against the 'Field'?

[Lemnear]

if any deck was actually 75/25 vs the field it would warp the meta to where you are either playing that deck or a deck built specifically to beat it. Since that is not the case you are clearly wrong...

In my books, a deck is highly warping the metagame if people are "forced" to dedicate 4+ SB slots to that particular deck alone. These days you either dodge the low manacost spells which get stuck in counterbalance or "have to" run Decay.

I'll admit that I haven't played omni post DTT but I'm having a hard time believing that a card that only has a use after turn 3 fixed the extremely clunky draws and consistency issues to bring the deck to be better than sneak. 2 card combo is almost certainly better than a 3 card combo.

Considering that containment priest only made the poor matches worse it didn't have that detrimental of an effect i don't believe.

Well, it's pretty unlikely to cast SneakAttack + hasty creature by turn 2/3 in SneakShow anyway, isn't it? You also reduced the number of clunky combo parts from a whooping 16 (and the fact that Griselbrand does nothing if paired with anotjer creature in your hand) to 4 S&T and 4 Omniscience plus an Emrakul which is about half the number SneakShow has to run and you can even spare a color. You don't suffer from clunky draws as DTT is easily castable unlike the former staple Enter The Infinite even w/o Omniscience in play and ergo does double duty for this deck as it digs for S&T/Omni pre-combo and for the kill with Omni on the field. You can even play Probes for additional information/protection/redundancy and quicker filling of your yard.

In general I find it really counterproductive to make statements about the current state of OmniTell without experience and suggesting SneakShow in the process

Edit:

There's that good-spirited, friendly and over-bearing Lemnear we have all come to love

I will agree with the sentiment of your post anyway, which is to say that I don't see how Sneak and Show is more consistent than Omni in the post-DTT world.

I love you too, pal xD

[iamajellydonut]

In my books, a deck is highly warping the metagame if people are "forced" to dedicate 4+ SB slots to that particular deck alone.

Outside of ANT, I can't think of a single deck that dedicates excessive amounts of cards in their sideboard for their Miracles match-up. Even Maverick just kind of rolls with the punches. I run Abrupt Decay because it's an amazing fucking card. I run Wear/Tear because it's an amazing fucking card. I run Surgical Extraction because it's an amazing fucking card. I run Red Elemental Blast because everything else is blue too. I run Krosan Grip because it's a shitty but generally necessary card. I run Pithing Needle because it's fucking amazing.

Who's actually that afraid of the big bad Miracles? It's not that good.

[Lemnear]

Outside of ANT, I can't think of a single deck that dedicates excessive amounts of cards in their sideboard for their Miracles match-up. Even Maverick just kind of rolls with the punches. I run Abrupt Decay because it's an amazing fucking card. I run Wear/Tear because it's an amazing fucking card. I run Surgical Extraction because it's an amazing fucking card. I run Red Elemental Blast because everything else is blue too. I run Krosan Grip because it's a shitty but generally necessary card. I run Pithing Needle because it's fucking amazing.

Who's actually that afraid of the big bad Miracles? It's not that good.

...and Maverick has been successful to make a comeback since Miracles is a thing?

[iamajellydonut]

...and Maverick has been successful to make a comeback since Miracles is a thing?

That's not the point, and Maverick is shit for a lot more reasons than just "Miracles exists".

[apple713]

But it's not an A+B+C card combo, its more of an A+B+X, where X just needs to be any cantrip. It's literally SnT>Omni>Ponder>ohheylookDTT>DTT>Ponder>Preordain>CWish>win. Lines like that are so common that it would be dumb to think otherwise. And yes, DTT did shoot it's consistency through the roof, and also aids with this whole 2 card combo thing. The only thing Sneak and Show is more consistent at is getting more dead draws.

So I'm looking for 2 cards, then I'm looking to chain cast my deck until I find a CWish. Chaining my deck isn't too hard when it consists of 12 cantrips and 4 DTT. So then instead of needing a 1/8 card as you say (Cwish or DTT) it's more like a 1/16 card (DTT, CWish, Ponder, Preordain) and that's not even counting G.Probe.

even if you call omni a 2 card combo finding 2 cards that are at best 4 of's is still worse than finding 2 cards that are 8 of's. EVEN going as far to designate DTT as a combo piece, finding 2x 6 of's is still harder than finding 2x 8 of's

[rufus]

...
I'm wondering what decks other than Can Thresh are out there that might not have spectacular matchups against everything, but no terrible ones against anything, either.

There are decks like Dragon Stompy that seem to care more about their own draw than the opponent's.

[Lemnear]

even if you call omni a 2 card combo finding 2 cards that are at best 4 of's is still worse than finding 2 cards that are 8 of's. EVEN going as far to designate DTT as a combo piece, finding 2x 6 of's is still harder than finding 2x 8 of's

with more cantrips total and the use of DTT to look 7 cards deep and cherrypick, I doubt the chance to find both combo pieces by turn 3/4 is any lower than running SneakShows 8/8 split, but that's not the topic. Evading clunky draws/hands of several Creatures and dodging opposing hate is. We could go into details and compare how efficient a Sneaky Emrakul is compared to a S&t'd Omniscience for closing out games

[Star|Scream]

even if you call omni a 2 card combo finding 2 cards that are at best 4 of's is still worse than finding 2 cards that are 8 of's. EVEN going as far to designate DTT as a combo piece, finding 2x 6 of's is still harder than finding 2x 8 of's

I don't get it. Why do you keep arguing when you've admitted to not even playing with OR against the deck? It's putting up enough numbers to be a DTB.

[BTY]

i wouldn't recommend a combo deck for what he's asking. most combo decks lose to themselves. Furthermore, unless something has drastically changed, sneak and show is the best combo deck in the format. D&T is maybe its worst matchup... and blood moon/pyroclasm rock it.

Recently omni has been performing better but it's less consistent than sneak. Sneak is underrepresented and doesn't show up as high on tier lists because its among the most expensive decks in the format comparatively.

That is not always true, especially with the cantrip density of certain combo decks like storm variants and omnitell. Those decks both have a high density of cantrips, a lot of/enough basics+fetches so you don't lose to wasteland much (with the exception of some versions of TES) and the combo is relatively compact. For storm, you just usually need mana and some form of business card, and omnitell you need the S&T, omni and usually just cantrips and DTT to find the kill. I have been playing both a lot lately and they are both very consistent and have very few bad match ups, the worst probably being Reanimator and MUD sometimes for storm and Other show and tell decks/griselbrand decks with Force of Will for omnitell, MUD can also be kind of tough too but all of those decks aren't very common at all. The biggest thing holding storm back is that it can be tough to see winning lines sometimes or how to adequately play against discard or something but all in all I think it could be a perfectly reasonable choice.

[Richard Cheese]

Just pick up another flavor of Delver. More creatures around? Try Patriot. More combo? Give BUG a spin.

[wizard_of_gore]

- Various GBx midrange builds (Jund, Rock, BUG and similar)
- Deadguy ale, maverick, death and taxes
- Various Ux stoneblades
- Tempo Delver decks
- Miracles
- Grixis midrange/control

[Admiral_Arzar]

Every deck has bad matchups. The key is to find decks that are good against most of the field - i.e. Miracles is 50/50 or better against basically all tier one decks, but suffers against Tier 2 or fringe decks like MUD, Cloudpost, Infect, and Stax. Delver has issues with Veteran Explorer.dec, anything mono-black, etc. However, these decks are going to be strong against most of what you will see, which is the reason they see so much play.

[Megadeus]

I think the closest you will get to a 50/50 deck is a Stoneblade Variant. The counterspells give you a shot against combo decks and the stoneforge package plus removal and other bombs like Jace give you game against the fair decks.

[mishima_kazuya]

The key is just knowing your deck better and playing better than your opponent.
Turns your not so good match-ups, into 50/50 match-ups.

[Varal]

Are you talking about 50/50 for an average player playing against an average player or for an expert player playing against another expert player? This can make a big difference since not all decks/matchups have the same tolerance for mistakes.

[slave]

In my books, a deck is highly warping the metagame if people are "forced" to dedicate 4+ SB slots to that particular deck alone.

Dredge did exactly this for quite some time IME. Hate these days is so varied, and in many cases main deck material (DRS etc.), that I don't think this is the case for the majority of players.

I think the strongest deck is Miracles, it's a beast in the hands of a good pilot.
But out of curiosity, what could you possibly play to hate them out in the first place?

[FoolofaTook]

Dredge did exactly this for quite some time IME. Hate these days is so varied, and in many cases main deck material (DRS etc.), that I don't think this is the case for the majority of players.

I think the strongest deck is Miracles, it's a beast in the hands of a good pilot.
But out of curiosity, what could you possibly play to hate them out in the first place?

Vendilion Clique and Stifle main list.

[mishima_kazuya]

BG/x decks like Shardless BUG or Jund are good against Miracles. The combination of Tarmogoyf, card advantage from Ancestral or P.Fire+Liliana and Abrupt Decay for Counterbalance is great. The caveat is that you need to pray Miracles doesn't assemble a board of basic lands and topdeck Entreat the Angels for sad times.

[carefulmug]

Thank you for your responses!

The key is just knowing your deck better and playing better than your opponent.
Turns your not so good match-ups, into 50/50 match-ups.

I agree with your philosophy, only my goal is to take 50/50 match-ups and render them wins, not to take 30-70 match ups and render them even.

Are you talking about 50/50 for an average player playing against an average player or for an expert player playing against another expert player? This can make a big difference since not all decks/matchups have the same tolerance for mistakes.

I'm considering these values in a vacuum by ignoring mind games and bluffs but anticipating ideal execution on both sides. However, I can see how this may create for more gray area than is helpful.


Nonetheless, t sounds like the consensus is Delver, Storm, DnT, Miracles, S&T, and, to a lesser extent, Elves and Blade.

[Zupponn]

There are decks like Dragon Stompy that seem to care more about their own draw than the opponent's.

Yeah, the deck is definitely at the least 50/50 against the field, but sometimes 30/70 against itself.