People getting SUED for speculating on cards on MKM

[Julian23]

Just stumbled across this on reddit. German PT player Tobias Gräfensteiner is currently being sued by a commercial trader (TCGDiscount) on MKM for speculating with 20-30 Chromanticore be bought from them earlier this year after getting some "inside information" about people working with it for the Pro Tour. He also has a history of 2.000 confirmed sales in the last 5 years.

This is especially interesting since this is a very common behavior among Magic players and if this goes through, a lot of (German) private sellers will be affected by this. I know of a lot of people who easily move 3-4x the volume Tobias did and they are already nervous about this. I'm also not sure how MKM feels about this situation.

http://np.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comm...nd_me_in_jail/

[JPoJohnson]

Beyond the obvious worry, I wonder how many others were bullied into paying off by the initial contact.

[Rizso]

Its really sad actually I hope tcgdiscount losses all their buyers. Who would want to buy from them if they sue people?

[Varal]

Interesting read, even if 70% is people assuming that laws are the same in Germany than how they think they are in their country.

[Lemnear]

Tbh in Germany there has grown a whole lawsuit industry over the last 6 years sueing people for minor illegal or grey areas of web activity (torrent, stream, GEMA issues (picture/sound copyrights) often in combination with streams and youtube, buys & sells via various platforms, etc) often combined with setup traps by these companies (trap Torrents even made it in the news among them) so they can locate your adress via IP-Adress and the providers delivering the datas for these lawyers to fill the suit. (See below)

It was a matter of time until this procedure was hitting the cardmarket, but I don't see why TCG Discount can sue someone here as they can't even proof financial damage nor have any indicators for him being a professional trader which would be only interresting for the staate in terms of taxes. It's basically the same grey area (at least imo) that eBay is in terms of private buys and sells. You could basically sue any private seller on eBay if they sell stuff your shop is also doing, with the same logic of them not paying Taxes and damaging your business.

I don't know what the 250.000€ bullshit is they got going somehow, which has no Chance to withstand in a second instance because TCG Discount does neither own the secondary market, the platform nor the trademark. I'm sure they just went to a Judge who has no clue what he was dealing with and him just signing based on lacking information or plain misinformation. We already know a similar case in Germany in terms of streams where the lawyers went to a Judge claiming PEOPLE SPREAD VIDEOS (which is clearly illegal) and used the Judges descision to get access to the data of IP owners from the providers and sued people for WATCHING, before the thing became public and the lawyers office got sued himself. They still sure made big money by that scam.

I doubt there is legal ground for a private company to sue Individuals here, but a pure attempt to intimidate and squeeze out money with the sheer fear of facing defeat in Court so people pay. It's more a "lets just try" approach of that scummy lawsuit industry initialized by a TCG Discount to push out all privat sellers from the secondary market.

I have to deal with similar stuff all the time as an architect with people sueing me for stuff they did not pay for but wanted to be done, because they think "those thinks are included". Without boring you with details here, I usually slap them pictures and their Contract into their face to read what they signed for (had to attend at Court myself only twice as people did not want to accept the clear Situation of Fights here; same outcome btw.). Verdict: there is no reason to freak out over a lawsuit ever, no matter the number of digits involved

[Sisyphos]

I'm not confused that this happened, I'm only confused that it took so long to happen.

The German Federal Court of Justice has been concerned with people selling stuff on Ebay several times in the past. There it has been ruled since 2008 (search for the case number I ZR 3/06 if you can read German and want the whole judgment), that e.g. repeated selling of articles in a short time, selling items that have only been bought a short time before, selling items for third parties and the amount of feedback left for sales, can indicate that the person acting is not acting as a consumer but as a commercial business. When acting as a commercial business, you have to observe the regulations applicable. This can range from paying VAT if your transaction volume is high enough to having to inform your customers about their right of withdrawal from the contract if applicable, etc. If you do not do this, other commercial business can send you something comparable to a cease-and-desist letter and if you do not accept the conditions mentioned in this letter, they can try to achieve a prohibition order from Court. The procedure described by the person involved (letter from an attorney, prohibition order, filing an appeal against this order etc) is typical for such cases. Whether the Court applied to will find the evidence conclusive that the person acted as a commercial business and not as a consumer, I can not judge based on the information given, but given how other courts have ruled in cases concerning the sale of items on Ebay in the past, I would not want to wager on the outcome. If this law is applicable to acting on Ebay, why should it be any different when acting on MKM?

Disclaimer: The information above is neither meant as legal advice, nor meant to induce panic amongst people using MKM, nor meant to imply that I approve of this application of the law by German courts, I think it is totally ridiculous, I just wanted to share some light on the matter.

[talermacher]

Interesting read, even if 70% is people assuming that laws are the same in Germany than how they think they are in their country.

Last time I heard of the IRS in terms of tax fraud, the thrust was that they take everything you got, rape your children and make you watch and afterwards you go to jail until the end of your days. I really wonder where all the sympathy on reddit comes from as there is not even the slightest mercy towards this kind of crime in the US even if the same exact situation might not have constituted tax fraud.

Apart from this his lawyer sucked* and he was stupid enough to take legal advice from his girlfriend. Without his really stupid reaction in which he admits to his crimes (speculation without a business constitutes tax fraud) there wouldn't have been a sufficient bases for what followed and the case would have bounced as quickly as humanly possible. He should have ignored the 750€ demand - just like he wanted to.

*Either the lawyer was straight up stupid or he just did as he was told. T.G. probably went to a lawyer and said "draft me a reply to this bullshit" and the lawyer charged him 390€ knowing very well that not responding would have been better ...

Beyond the obvious worry, I wonder how many others were bullied into paying off by the initial contact.

This is common business here and usually only old people fall for it.

[Phelix]

i feel like buying a bunch of different ish from them, just to leave comments like "plix no sue me", "screw you bas3rds" etc.

[talermacher]

i feel like buying a bunch of different ish from them, just to leave comments like "plix no sue me", "screw you bas3rds" etc.

The arise of that kind of sentiments might earn him another lawsuit (deliberately damaging the reputation of the store by spreading the untruth) in case his story is off by one bit.

[Adryan]

The arise of that kind of sentiments might earn him another lawsuit (deliberately damaging the reputation of the store by spreading the untruth) in case his story is off by one bit.

This thread reminds me why I have a legal costs insurance. Shit like that can get really expensive and destroy your life financially. If I were this guy, I would sue the shit out of this company.

[jambarama]

He posted an update. Evidently they want to sue the guy for the reddit post now too: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...ht_land_me_in/

[JPoJohnson]

That update is interesting and full of liable. I'm mostly interested in the punchline of where this ends eventually.

[thecrav]

That update is interesting and full of liable. I'm mostly interested in the punchline of where this ends eventually.

Slight correction: It's full of (possible*) libel. He may then be held liable for that libel.

*IDK about Germany but in the US, something cannot be libelous if it is also true.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I've read about the affair on Facebook.

Honestly, I was afraid of things like this many many years ago, and it was the main reason why I stayed away from Ebay, MKM and such for nearly always. I find especially dangerous that if the TCGD wins this might become a base for clear violation of freedom of property, as the judge would be basically saying that you cannot freely sell what you've once acquired. Also, I really hope that the guy will win the case and then sue the bastards for horrid heaps of money and potentially ruin them. Speak about vengeance.

Otoh, I would understand if not TCGD but state would take interest in this, as it might seem like a grey economics and tax fraud. It's hard to say where's the line , but clearly a 10k euro/year hobby is on the brink of business, right? Unless the judge will understand that most of those money go back into the hobby so it's not exactly business, but why should the German state take care of a random MtG dude, when there's surely still some 140+ years old nazi war criminal to imprison.

Personally, I'm making two or three decisions and several actions. I already wrote emails to the parties involved (I guess that TCGD won't be happy with what they'll read). The next step is obvious. I'm withdrawing all my money from MKM and freezing the account. And (as much as I hate that), I'll be returning to the stone age type of MtG trades with hand-to-hand deals in stinky lgs: anonymous cash for anonymous cards, something that leaves no traces for both the business and/or state gangsters to dick about.

I'm not happy with this, as I really hate the atmosphere and behavior of oriental bazaars, but as I still got lots of money cards to get rid of, there's no other chance. So please, reserve a few minutes on Saturday, and take a look into my binders during the Prague's Eternal!

[meffeo]

So please, reserve a few minutes on Saturday, and take a look into my binders during the Prague's Eternal!

Actually, the 3rd edition of Prague Eternal ended last week.

[Ingo]

I googled this up and found an article of an author who got feedback from TCGDiscounts, which sheds light on the other side of the story.
http://atgn.com.au/sellers-beware-ca...magic-players/

[Di]

So the Tl;dr of this is that nobody will buy cards from TCGDiscount ever again, yes? Welp, they did a spectacular job promoting their brand. *golfclap*