Best Era of Legacy?

[Adryan]

What meets your criteria for decks which require skill? Must they play brainstorm and countermagic? Howabout Jund? Sure, there aren't as many decision trees, but any legacy deck requires skill in all of the following categories - Deck Construction - Mulliganing - Sequencing of Spells/Gameplay - Sideboarding.

Just because the gameplay/sequencing of spells category is easier doesn't mean the other categories don't compensate for that.

Mau Mau also needs a decent amount of skill. A dog or a cat can't play mau mau.

[Fatal]

I think answering question what does it mean "deck require skill or doesn't" could make an other topic. So if any mod think same just separate this post.

Let take a look how we counting complex in IT with Function Points methods, let's take COSMIC (it's probably the easiest one, and all approved by ISO/IEC 19761:2011), with some modification or rather interpretation :-).

First of all let take strategy phase:

- Aim - to measure of the complex of playing the deck - mulligan and taking actions to win and sideboarding (for this example I will skip sideboarding)
- Scope - all deck so 60 MD cards with 15 sideboard card (for this example I will skip sideboarding)
- where are the boundaries of the measured object - it's interaction between you and your deck, so basically we will count every decision which you have made from starting the game to ending the game. Since we don't have here requirements it's not really a COSMIC method, but on the other hand we will use same mechanism of mapping and counting.

Ok let's try second phase - mapping on Generic Software Model:

Required - Object of Interest and Data groups based on Object of Interest, for simplify I would take only only few groups without even naming them (naming only OoI).


Object of Interest:
- Key cards in hand which is part of cards to needed to victory. It's easy with linear combo decks where it's easy you need card A and B (most combo decks in Legacy are 2 cards combo or even 1 with specify conditions). Non-combo decks are more difficult to describe, but let's try..
- Mana condition - so basically resources counted as available mana (for example Miracles with EtA require this OoI to win).
- Board state - it's OoI of most Midrange decks, we will count is as relevant permanents on board, calculating value will be individual for each interaction (a lot of math here so let's say we will count each interaction as manipulation.
- Card advantage - it's important factor for most control and midrange decks, since decks like Jund or Shardless BUG based on this
- CQ - an other important OoI specially in cantrip heavy format which is Legacy - each decision after it is made after manipulation on cards in hand.

last two OoI are opponent interaction:

- Opponent strategy to win - what does opponent do to win
- Opponent strategy to not lose - what does opponent do to not lose - so how he block our actions.

Quite a lot of OoI, let's try to define some simples deck and theirs functional process:

Burn

To simple it let's say burns run 20 lands and 40 l.bolts.
Aim to win is to have 7 key cards which are l.bolts, mana conditions are 1 mana turn 1, 2 mana turn 2 and 3 mana turn 3 (3, 6, 9 that's 18 dmg total).

Measure Phase:

Let's count muligan decision as first Functional Process:

First manipulation - does hand contain 5 l.bolts (key cards) and 2 lands (mana condition) ? - 2 CFP quite easy (counting for each OoI 1 group since I don't have time to write down other aspects - it's only example how we can count complex)

Playing (second functional proces):
Card advantage - doesnt matter here mostly

Board state - matters only in 3 cases - does opponent have way to gain life, countering via permanent (CotV), or forbid targeting (Leyline) - 3 CFP

CQ - doesn't matter here too - sure if we take normal full deck it will count since some spells like Price of Progress has non-constant value dependent on opponent board state (so 2 CFP)

opponent strategy to win - does his strategy is faster then mine ? - 1 CFP, actually it should be 0 in most cases, fighting only combo decks based on creatures which can be interacted by Burn player only matters here other aren't even consider - can't interaction.

opponent strategy to not lose - basically gaining life, slowing down (Trinisphere), discard or countering spells is probably only way to do it (if not winning). So we have 1 for lifegain, 1 for slowing, 1 for discard, 1 for countering - so basically 4 CFP in data group.

Sum up:
Mulligan - 2 CFP
Playing - 10 CFP

Easy deck, that's why it's easy to wrote algorithm for burn.

Let's take some more complex combo deck OmniTell (it's really quite complex)

To go off it's require 3 Cards in hand (Show and Tell, Omniscience, Cunning Wish/DTT/Cantrip) and mana condition - 2U.

Deck runs: take simple list post DTT(I'm lazy sorry)

Mulligan:
Does hand contain every combo parts (1 CFP), if not does deck contain Cantrips to draw them (1 CFP), Does deck contain Countermagic to stop opponent stretegy to win (1 CFP), or strategy to not lose (for example FoW) (1 CFP), does deck contain enough resources (mana condition to cast S&T) 1 CFP

Playing:
Card Advantage - is important only if opponent can interact with me (run coutermagic so his cards in hand counts) - 1 CFP with DTT.
CQ - important as hell to get all combo parts - 1 CFP for each type of cantrip - Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain and Cunning Wish - 4 CFP
Board state - doesn't really counts here - only if it's suppressed with cards taxing spells - 1 CFP
opponent strategy to win - counts only if is faster then ours, then we have to stop it with for example countermagic (1 CFP), or single bullet from Cunning Wish (1 CFP)
opponent strategy to not lose - similar to opponent strategy to win 2 CFP

Sum up:
Mulligan: 5 CFP - harder then with burn
Playing: 10 CFP - similar complex

Before anyone judge - try do it yourself to count complexity more data you do bigger compression we get this methodology is based only statistic and rule where each sub-process for each data group is equal (some groups have more attributes, some manipulations are more complex but it doesn't matter here! - similar like in COSMIC) - separate thread would be nice (not sure anyone will take challenge).

At the end - sorry for my bad English It's not my native language, don't be gramma-nazi !

Refs to original method: http://www.cosmicon.com/portal/public/MMv4.0.1.pdf

[sjmcc13]

What meets your criteria for decks which require skill? Must they play brainstorm and countermagic? Howabout Jund? Sure, there aren't as many decision trees, but any legacy deck requires skill in all of the following categories - Deck Construction - Mulliganing - Sequencing of Spells/Gameplay - Sideboarding.

Just because the gameplay/sequencing of spells category is easier doesn't mean the other categories don't compensate for that.

The more points at which you have to make a non-obvious decision that effects the outcome of the game, the more skill testing the deck is.
The more complex each decision is the more skill testing the deck is.
The more your deck relies on you knowing and properly applying the card interactions the more skill testing it is.
Also knowing how to adjust your game plan to the current matchup and board state adds a skill factor deck.
Skill is not a single axis, it is a multidimensional array, those are just a few of the dimensions, and it is not just found in Blue decks.

[DLifshitz]

I mean you could train a monkey playing Merfolk and Zoo almost perfectly. But there is nothing wrong with liking a monkey deck. Seriously, fun is important, but don't fool yourself Meerfolk and Zoo are anything else but dumb decks.

Now if that were remotely close to true, we would all be excellent Standard players, what with Standard being full of dumb decks.

For me the best time was immediately after Zendikar, when I was just getting into Legacy. The prices of cards were relatively low, few if any staples were being printed at mythic rarity, and enemy fetchlands had just been printed. The metagame was fairly open. Unlike today, that was a very good time to be buying and building decks.

Nowadays I think the format is almost as good in itself, but very bad value for money. Like, even a small change or update to an existing deck - say, replacing a plains with Horizon Canopy, or Cavern of Souls, or an extra Ethersworn Canonist for the sideboard costs at about as much as a big investment into another hobby. A model for a miniature wargame, or a computer game, or a board game for example. I find buying cards at current prices very difficult to justify to myself.

[(nameless one)]

The potential choices with a given deck are not a mysterious number, it can be quantified. I think the number of people telling themselves that aggro is something skillfull is way too high. In all seriousness, if Zoo would ever be good again in Legacy I would bring a shimpanzee to legacy tournaments and he would do pretty well with Zoo.

I would run "shimpanzee" in zoo too.

[death]

2009-2012 right after Innistrad's release, Snapcaster Mage and Liliana of the Veil joining the card pool.

This was pre-Terminus/Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. The number of viable archetypes declined since then.

[Crimhead]

2009-2012 right after Innistrad's release, Snapcaster Mage and Liliana of the Veil joining the card pool.

This was pre-Terminus/Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. The number of viable archetypes declined since then.

Lots of viable decks, but almost all of them were tempo or midrange! Combo was at a low point, prison decks were disappearing from the top tables, and the best "control" decks ran aggressive cards like SFM and Goyf.

To each their own! Lots of people loved the Maverick era, but I'm very glad we've moved on!

[Koby]

The Best Era in Legacy is quite obviously the one in which I most excelled and won.
(That's 2011 to pre-AVR)

[GundamGuy]

Lots of viable decks, but almost all of them were tempo or midrange! Combo was at a low point, prison decks were disappearing from the top tables, and the best "control" decks ran aggressive cards like SFM and Goyf.

To each their own! Lots of people loved the Maverick era, but I'm very glad we've moved on!

SFM is not an aggressive card.

[Zilla]

SFM is not an aggressive card.

It is when it's in a dedicated control deck.

[Eldariel]

Right after Portal sets were legalized.

EDIT: That'd be late 2005/2006, I believe.

[emidln]

Right after Portal sets were legalized.

EDIT: That'd be late 2005/2006, I believe.

Agreed. Before they nerfed Time Vault/Flame Fusillade. That's late 2005, early 2006 I think. I could play cards like Stasis, Time Vault, and Burning Wish in my deck.

[GundamGuy]

It is when it's in a dedicated control deck.

All I know is that it wasn't in that dedicated control deck for that 1 power of aggressive action.

[sjmcc13]

All I know is that it wasn't in that dedicated control deck for that 1 power of aggressive action.

No, it was there for the 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink, or the tutoring up and dropping a Jitte or Sword.

[Crimhead]

All I know is that it wasn't in that dedicated control deck for that 1 power of aggressive action.

Why would you even say this? Obviously SFM's capacity to bolster aggression is unrelated to its own power! Are you trolling me?

You can goldfish a turn eight with just two plains and a SFM (and what you tutor for). The ability for to put up that kind of clock makes a SFM deck very different than a more dedicated control deck. This is particularly evident when the SFM deck is up against control.

[Zilla]

All I know is that it wasn't in that dedicated control deck for that 1 power of aggressive action.

This seems a bit pedantic. It's aggressive in that it allows a dedicated control deck to go on the offensive as early as turn 4. That's extremely early for control to be aggressive. Hence, SFM is an aggressive card in control. We probably don't need to derail the thread any further about it though.

[GundamGuy]

Why would you even say this? Obviously SFM's capacity to bolster aggression is unrelated to its own power! Are you trolling me?

You can goldfish a turn eight with just two plains and a SFM (and what you tutor for). The ability for to put up that kind of clock makes a SFM deck very different than a more dedicated control deck. This is particularly evident when the SFM deck is up against control.

Ding Ding Ding, it's almost like the card you tutor for is the aggressive card... it's almost like SFM is a tutor that allows you to go aggressive, or defensive, or find what you need... and isn't in and of it's self an aggressive card...

Also if the ability to put up "that kind of clock" makes SFM decks different then "Dedicated Control" I assume you don't include any version of Miracles with Monastary Mentor (Far more aggressive) not a "Dedicated Control Deck"

Also sure when your up against "Control" and your role is the beat down you can use SFM to speed up your clock... just like basically any card in a deck that's goal is to be the Beat down...

This seems a bit pedantic. It's aggressive in that it allows a dedicated control deck to go on the offensive as early as turn 4. That's extremely early for control to be aggressive. Hence, SFM is an aggressive card in control. We probably don't need to derail the thread any further about it though.

It was pedantic, I find it hard to call SFM aggressive in the sense that it's the card that SFM finds that is aggressive, if you want it to be, it can also be defensive, or you can use it just to get a shuffle... it's got so many applications. It's a card that gives you card selection and options... which IMO are not the concepts that go with the idea of agressive cards usually...


Back on Topic:

My personal favorate time for Legacy was post Inninstrad to RTR period.

[death]

I find it hard to call SFM aggressive in the sense that it's the card that SFM finds that is aggressive

But which card do you use to put the tutored card into play? Exactly.

[GundamGuy]

But which card do you use to put the tutored card into play? Exactly.

You are right SFM does everything, it gives you options, puts stuff into play, makes your cantrips better, and it can even turn sideways and block 1/1's all day! Clearly a card I'd describe as aggressive....





Aggressively costed...

[Zombie]

Why would you even say this? Obviously SFM's capacity to bolster aggression is unrelated to its own power! Are you trolling me?

You can goldfish a turn eight with just two plains and a SFM (and what you tutor for). The ability for to put up that kind of clock makes a SFM deck very different than a more dedicated control deck. This is particularly evident when the SFM deck is up against control.

A Turn 4 Entreat@2 kills a goldfish on T7. One angel on T3 kills at 8. That aggression again? I mean, this is obviously more of a stretch but given how people actually play Tombstalker and Gurmag Angler and some have actually played very Entreat-heavy lists...