[Deck] Grixis Tempo

[h2o]

Don't run Badlands. We often have to operate on one land, and you don't want to turn off your Dazes or be unable to cast Delver.

[Draggo]

Don't run Badlands. We often have to operate on one land, and you don't want to turn off your Dazes or be unable to cast Delver.

I have to disagree here. I've been playing the single badlands for ages, and close to never put me off blue mana sources. Becouse of the Badlands you have less change the opponent can just Wasteland your red or black mana away. Just fetch it as the third land and you basicly always have the acces to 3 different colors.

[h2o]

"fetch it as the third land"

that's a lot of lands you're fetching there bud.

you have to have islands available at all times for daze or to threaten daze.

what if your opener is badlands-fetch-deathrite-daze-brainstorm? if you lead off with the badlands, you can't daze or activate deathrite. if you lead off with the fetch, you can't brainstorm properly.

badlands increases, rather than decreases, the number of games where you lose to your mana base.

[Draggo]

"fetch it as the third land"

that's a lot of lands you're fetching there bud.

you have to have islands available at all times for daze or to threaten daze.

what if your opener is badlands-fetch-deathrite-daze-brainstorm? if you lead off with the badlands, you can't daze or activate deathrite. if you lead off with the fetch, you can't brainstorm properly.

badlands increases, rather than decreases, the number of games where you lose to your mana base.

With fetching it as a third land I thought it was obvious you don't grab it ASAP. First land to get for me is Sea then Volcanic for 90% of the games. Either the sea or Volcanic into the Badlands is not all bad either. You always have the Shaman activation and Bolt mana open. Some games after boarding you can lead with Trop into Badlands and have all threads open including Decay, Bolt, Daze, Pierce and Stifle.

Having Sea, Volcanic and Badlands in play makes it close to impossible to Wasteland a single manasource. If you have one or 2 Sea/Volcanic and a single one of the other, you have a high chanse that your land will be destroyed and you miss either black or red mana.

In the example you give, I would go for fetch > Sea > Deathrite. Second turn will be either lead with Brainstorm, or Badlands depending on the draw and if you used Daze, etc. The fetch in the yard will give more mana for Deathrite so it's no bad to start with it. You can argue that you miss a possible brainstorm shuffle, but it's all hyphotectical.

All I'm saying is that I tested the badlands for a long time, and I think it's better to have it instead of the third Volcanic. You'll find yourself in situations that you want the third black land more ofthen then the time you have an awkward Daze starting hand.

[h2o]

obviously I'm not going to convince you. everyone else: please don't play Badlands.

[Delvis]

I tried out True-Name again in place of Anglers on Friday. He seems incredibly good for this meta. I won games that I wouldn't have won without him. Wound up 3-1 with some luck and misplays from opponents, and somehow I squeezed out a 2-0 win against Aggro Loam (naturally this was after I told him how miserable the matchup was for me). Other matchups I won were 4c Deathblade and Grixis Painter. The match I lost was Nic Fit, on camera no less.

I also swapped Bobs in for my Therapies. Tough to say whether it was a good call or not, since I only drew Bob once all night and didn't play against Miracles. However, the one time I drew him was in a 6-card opener with no other threats and the hand wouldn't have been keepable with Therapy instead.

[VERTUK]

Has anyone tried Krosan Grip in the sb? Abrupt decay seems a lot better but sometimes it's very hard to get the GB cost.

[Delvis]

That seems reasonable, VERTUK. Decay seems especially clunky with Vortex. Making BG AND 1RR with all blue duals is not an easy task, and you want both cards in the Miracles matchup, where they will probably place a high priority on taking your Deathrites off the table (which makes it even harder to cast). I don't currently play Decay in my sideboard, partly because of how awkward the mana cost is for the deck to produce.

Grip isn't quite the guarantee against Miracles that Decay is, but they're not likely to be floating a 3 on top. Decay is a little more versatile, being terrific (when castable) in Delver matchups as well, but that cost may be worth paying. It seems reasonable enough to try, at least. Let us know if it works for you.

[Draggo]

You know what fixes that problem of the awkward BG and 1RR costs? A Badlands .

Anyway.

Tried Grip, didn't like it becouse of the 3 mana cost and it it had been randomly countered a few times by counterbalance, the main reason you want this card over something like Ancient Grudge.
I think you'll be better off running the Grudge. It destroys decks like MUD and I don't think that there are alot of enchantments you are trying to hit at this moment anyway.

[Ltj999]

I tried out True-Name again in place of Anglers on Friday. He seems incredibly good for this meta. I won games that I wouldn't have won without him. Wound up 3-1 with some luck and misplays from opponents, and somehow I squeezed out a 2-0 win against Aggro Loam (naturally this was after I told him how miserable the matchup was for me). Other matchups I won were 4c Deathblade and Grixis Painter. The match I lost was Nic Fit, on camera no less.

I also swapped Bobs in for my Therapies. Tough to say whether it was a good call or not, since I only drew Bob once all night and didn't play against Miracles. However, the one time I drew him was in a 6-card opener with no other threats and the hand wouldn't have been keepable with Therapy instead.

Any more insights on the bobs? Did you swap out all the therapies? I feel like totally cutting therapy from the 75 takes away one of our strongest tools, but I also really want bob as well!

[Delvis]

Any more insights on the bobs? Did you swap out all the therapies? I feel like totally cutting therapy from the 75 takes away one of our strongest tools, but I also really want bob as well!

Bob seems fine. Like I said, I only got to cast him once and he ate an Abrupt Decay before triggering. I'm anxious for more data and I'll update when I get it.

Cutting Therapy was something I was hesitant to do due to the raw power of the card and my own personal talent for hitting blind Therapies. However, I felt like Therapy was only good against decks that we're already good against (combo decks for example) and was anywhere from useless to subpar against the most popular bad/average matchups for us, Lands (and Aggro Loam) and Miracles.

Bob seemed good against those decks, being both an extra threat to get on the board/absorb removal, and card advantage against these decks that can't really pressure our life total. Still seems that way, in theory.

I didn't feel like I missed the Therapies overly much. I'm really not certain they're necessary - but this would be purely a metagame call.

Another card I'm eyeing for cuts is Pyroblast. In a world without Dig Through Time, and with how creature-heavy the meta currently is, it just doesn't feel as necessary. In the place of the two in my board, I was thinking of replacing one with a Sudden Shock and the other with either Bob #4 or an Abrupt Decay. Sudden Shock in particular feels pretty strong right now, as it uncounterably kills like 99% of the creatures it can target in the format. It's possible the metagame is warped around Pyroblast and cutting it will only work if I'm the only one doing it, but it's something I'm considering.

[Star|Scream]

Bob seems fine. Like I said, I only got to cast him once and he ate an Abrupt Decay before triggering. I'm anxious for more data and I'll update when I get it.

Cutting Therapy was something I was hesitant to do due to the raw power of the card and my own personal talent for hitting blind Therapies. However, I felt like Therapy was only good against decks that we're already good against (combo decks for example) and was anywhere from useless to subpar against the most popular bad/average matchups for us, Lands (and Aggro Loam) and Miracles.

Bob seemed good against those decks, being both an extra threat to get on the board/absorb removal, and card advantage against these decks that can't really pressure our life total. Still seems that way, in theory.

I didn't feel like I missed the Therapies overly much. I'm really not certain they're necessary - but this would be purely a metagame call.

I've had the same thoughts about therapy as well. I took 2 out to fit in 2 shattering spree (although grudge may just be better) because we're so cold to a chalice on 1.

Also, are you still enjoying TNN instead of the anglers?

[Delvis]

I've had the same thoughts about therapy as well. I took 2 out to fit in 2 shattering spree (although grudge may just be better) because we're so cold to a chalice on 1.

Also, are you still enjoying TNN instead of the anglers?

Haven't played since Friday, but he felt very solid. The unblockability was really good, and the ability to dodge both removal and blockers was really nice. I figure if you can narrow down Miracles' answers to your creature into just Terminus, that forces them to sort of bend over backward to clear the table, and even turns on Stifle as a counterspell.

Also, Lands having to set up Tabernacle + Wasteland lock to answer him forces them into a line that takes a lot of setup, and by the time they answer him, they might even be in Bolt range. They also typically have to Crop Rotation or Gamble for a piece of that setup, which leaves them vulnerable to a Force. Aggro Loam has an even tougher time with True-Name as they really just don't have an answer for him beyond racing, and TNN is perfectly capable of keeping a giant Knight of the Reliquary at bay until they're primed for a lethal attack.

I really think True-Name is too good in this meta to NOT play, even if you're just playing one or two in the sideboard.

[lampsa]

Has anyone else tried Malicious Affliction from Commander 2014? I've been running it main as two-of with a Badlands. Most of the time it is just a Doom Blade, but now and then you get to kill a pair of Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary. I think the card is pretty good - the is a challenge of course but not impossible to do.

[sea]

i saw that the cincinnati scg winner this last weekend was running two winter orb in the board. i know this card has come up as a sideboard option in the past. i havent seen two in a successful finish before, though.

lands is getting more popular in my local metagame, so this looks like a potentially attractive option. does anyone have experience with this card in delver decks? what does it hit? how hard does it hit? how good is it in the lands matchup?

[Draggo]

I feel like if you drop the Winter Orb vs Lands, the moment Tabernacle comes into play, you lose the game. But it should slow down the game pace of decks like Miracles and Lands.
With Manabond/Exploration and Loam they can also start Wastelanding you and themself to get control over the mana back even with the Orb in play. It's a far stretch, but it's a line of play possible.

Dropping a Needle for Tespian and/or Maze and try to hit an Extraction on key cards like Tespian, Loam or Punishing Fire has the best chance of winning the game. Also Shaman and TNN are really good here.

[mcbain]

I feel like if you drop the Winter Orb vs Lands, the moment Tabernacle comes into play, you lose the game. But it should slow down the game pace of decks like Miracles and Lands.
With Manabond/Exploration and Loam they can also start Wastelanding you and themself to get control over the mana back even with the Orb in play. It's a far stretch, but it's a line of play possible.

Dropping a Needle for Tespian and/or Maze and try to hit an Extraction on key cards like Tespian, Loam or Punishing Fire has the best chance of winning the game. Also Shaman and TNN are really good here.

So your saying winter orb is bad and don't play it. Particularly decks that play two. From some of the results it seems like some people think it's pretty good.

I have to admit I have been intrigued by it but haven't got the reps in with it. Anyone care to comment that has some good experience with it?

I would think it's a solid fair deck card and yes, bad against Tabernacle


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[btm10]

I've played a ton of Winter Orb in BUG Delver and it's absolutely fantastic. Timing it is important, but the interactions with Daze and Deathrite are incredibly powerful.

[justjammin]

i'm running this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Forked Bolt

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay


i'm feeling very well without probes and spell pierce are great.
for side winter orb helps a lot against Land (our worst match up)

I also removed the therapy because there are no more probes.

bye

[sea]

I've played a ton of Winter Orb in BUG Delver and it's absolutely fantastic. Timing it is important, but the interactions with Daze and Deathrite are incredibly powerful.

could you elaborate on the timing thing?

what matchups do you find it works well in?