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Thread: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

  1. #21
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    So, after the past couple of weekends, I think it is safe to assume that this deck is probably the most well positioned of all of the delver variants in the current metagame.

    Bob Huang's list appears to be stock considering the amount of 7-1 or better finishes at the most recent invitational that copied his list almost exactly (with bob himself making an appearance there):


    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Gurmag Angler

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    2 Dig Through Time
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Forked Bolt

    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta

    Sideboard:
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Dismember
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    1 Ancient Grudge


    Also, I found an interesting article by Dennis Ulanov, a well known tempo pilot, in which he explains his card choices and sideboarding vs some common strategies:

    http://articles.kirwansgamestore.com...ver-in-legacy/

    I am going to update the primer with his information.

  2. #22
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    Also, I found an interesting article by Dennis Ulanov, a well known tempo pilot, in which he explains his card choices and sideboarding vs some common strategies:

    http://articles.kirwansgamestore.com...ver-in-legacy/

    I am going to update the primer with his information.
    Great find and subsequent edit. I'd add the link to the primer though, instead of just his name.

  3. #23
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by jrsthethird View Post
    Great find and subsequent edit. I'd add the link to the primer though, instead of just his name.
    Done.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I'm fairly certain this should be in DTB according to the numbers.

    That being said, I'm new to legacy and jumping into this deck. The primer has been very helpful, thank you!

    Does anyone know how the stock Delver list deals with Miracles? (w/o the Sulfiric Vortex)

    Also, how does the deck deal with Lands?

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    I'm fairly certain this should be in DTB according to the numbers.

    That being said, I'm new to legacy and jumping into this deck. The primer has been very helpful, thank you!

    Does anyone know how the stock Delver list deals with Miracles? (w/o the Sulfiric Vortex)

    Also, how does the deck deal with Lands?
    The stock list beats Miracles by never letting them assemble CB+SDT. If they do, game over. You have no way to crack that without Abrupt Decay. You can Pyroblast the CB, but they can just flip the Top to counter any 1cc spell. You can win under CB+SDT if you already have pressure on the board, or if you can resolve YP through it and start making Elementals, but even then they can just Miracle Terminus and reset.

    Post-board it gets even more brutal because they can Moon you out of the game. Be careful and don't board out too many Bolts, because they bring in creatures post-board and an unchecked Mentor will just run you over.

    I really want to cut green (so I can run basics for Moon resiliency), so I'm searching for a way to beat them without Abrupt Decay. Still haven't found it.

    As for Lands, Deathrite Shaman is your friend. Eating their lands in response to Loams, or eating their Loams/Punishing Fires are both plays that are so incredibly important to winning the matchup, it's insane. In game 1, you need a draw with a lot of pressure backed up by just enough permission to get there. Counter Exploration whenever possible. If you can stop that from resolving, they have a tough time keeping pace with your threats.

    Some sideboard options are Surgical Extraction/Extirpate (which is devastating to them), Submerge/Vapor Snag/other bounce to deal with Marit Lages, and other fringey stuff like Tsabo's Web. I've seen TNN do wonders because they struggle to interact with it. Extraction is by far your best card, followed closely by Deathrite. I also play Snapcaster Mage in SB, which expands my effective number of Extractions.

    (Be careful if you're using Extirpate to target Punishing Fire, because they can buy it back with a Split Second spell on the stack. The two abilities involved are a mana ability and a triggered ability, neither of which are restricted by Split Second.)
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  6. #26
    MTGO Name: Adelorenzi
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    I'm fairly certain this should be in DTB according to the numbers.

    That being said, I'm new to legacy and jumping into this deck. The primer has been very helpful, thank you!

    Does anyone know how the stock Delver list deals with Miracles? (w/o the Sulfiric Vortex)

    Also, how does the deck deal with Lands?
    Yeah, the numbers for this deck are counting towards "Grixis Pyromancer" because of Tcdecks classifications, which have not differentiated between Grixis Control and Grixis Delver. Unfortunate, but what can you do :/

    Anyhow, Miracles is a tricky matchup. Counterbalance + Top locks you out pretty hard, so you will be trying to pressure them as best as you can. From watching coverage of this match, it seems to me like the best goal game 1 is to flood the board with pressure early and try to keep Terminus from resolving. If you can create a substantial amount of pressure before Countertop hits the board, you should be in a good position to win.

    Game 2 and 3, you can bring in all of your Pithing Needle/Null rod effects, as well as Pyroblasts and Cabal Therapies to attack the hand. You will likely want to board out some number of Bolts (not all if you expect Mentor), some Dazes (depending on how hard they play around them), and some Deathrite Shamans (they don't pressure the Miracles player hard enough and give them more value from Terminus). Sulfuric Vortex really does help here, and I recommend finding space for 1 because it is a common matchup.

    Lands is a tough match because Tabernacle will always hurt when you have Young Pyromancer. Deathrite Shaman is an MVP if you can keep him alive to eat lands and P Fire, also note that it might be worth countering a Punishing Fire if you can eat it the following turn with DRS. Gurmag Angler is your quickest path to victory, as it forces them to either find Maze of Ith or Glacial Chasm in a matter of turns. You have to be really picky with wasteland because if you use it frivolously you might get Marit Laged out of nowhere. Counter the Explorations/Manabonds because they enable them to be too explosive. Lands is designed to beat decks like this one, so don't feel bad if you are struggling with the matchup.

    Postboard bring in Surgicals and Pithing Needle removing forked bolt and a couple Probes (I might be wrong here, not much experience with the matchup, I think you need Counterspells g2&3).

  7. #27
    MTGO Name: Adelorenzi
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Just went 3-0 in a daily event on magic online.

    I used the exact same list as Alex Bastecki (can be found here) because it looked really balanced to me and I love Dread of Night.

    MUD: 2-0

    Game 1: He chalices me out on turn 1. I have mentally given up, but I decide to wasteland him since there are 3 in my hand. He plays a Cavern on contsruct, which I wasteland, and then another cavern, which I wasteland. He doesn't play anything else after that, so I drop a couple lands and play a Pyromancer. He can't find a land in time, so I progressively make tokens and eventually swarm him out before he can do anything.

    Game 2: I establish a pretty quick board and grudge a Lodestone Golem. I am able to keep him low on mana with wastelands, but he lands a Wurmcoil engine. I cantrip into the 2nd red source I needed to play the Sulfuric Vortex in my hand, and I play it and attack for the win.

    Merfolk: 2-1

    Game 1: I play turn 1 Delver while he plays an Aether Vial. I play a Young Pyromancer, he untaps, plays cavern on merfolk, and Chalice, which I Daze (had drawn it this turn luckily), he forces removing a lord, and I force back removing a spell pierce. This leaves him very low on resources, and my Delver /Pyro/Elemental army crush him.

    Game 2: He gets an early chalice to resolve after I play a couple creatures, but he plays lords and uses vial to great extent. I am crushed this time.

    Game 3: I get turn 1 Delver again, and he goes Mutavault -> Aether Vial. I play DRS and leave up spell pierce instead of playing Young Pyromancer, because I am afraid he has a Chalice. I am able to counter Chalice @ 1, he only has an Aether Vial + relic of progenitus on the board. He plays his 2nd Mutavault, I probe him and it looks like he kept his hand based on that Chalice, which I see after Probing him to reveal two islands. He Echoing Truths my 2 flipped insects, but it doesn't buy him enough time against me, and I play both back out. I cantrip into Young pyromancer further sealing the deal, and the game ends in short order as he has no clock.

    Esper Stoneblade: 2-0

    Game 1: I attack him pretty low with two flipped Delvers, he EEs for 0. We play back and forth a bunch (many Young Pyromancers and DRS get STP'd/Supreme Verdicted), but I land a Gurmag Angler that goes unanswered. He plays Lingering souls and stalls for 4 turns, but can't draw an out to the angler. If he had drawn Jace, it would have been game over, but I was lucky.

    Game 2: My early creatures get STP'd, but I get a flipped delver. He plays and flashes back lingering souls, making my Delver look pretty bad. I was a step ahead though, and luckily I brought in Dread of Night, which conveniently was in my hand, so I play it, and it resolves. I get in for some more points, he recovers with Snapcaster Mage -> STP. I play an Angler, but he has another Snap -> STP. I land a Delver, and brainstorm seeing 3 lightning bolts with him at 12 life. He doesn't have an answer to the delver, and swings, but my life total is at 25 from STPing that he did. I flip Delver, swing him down to 9, bolt him to 6, and pass with a bolt in hand (only 1 red source). This is his last chance to get back in the game, he Digs through time, but doesn't get what he is looking for (a Swords to Plowshares + land I think, but he doesn't get 1 or the other), and I swing and bolt him to death.

    I was really really lucky today, definitely stole matches that I had no business winning (such as against Chalice @ 1, finding my 1 outer Sulfuric Vortex vs Wurmcoil, and a very timely Dread of Night), but hey, that's the name of the game.

  8. #28
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    Postboard bring in Surgicals and Pithing Needle removing forked bolt and a couple Probes (I might be wrong here, not much experience with the matchup, I think you need Counterspells g2&3).
    I've played a couple of games against the common RG build and I'm still unsure of the right call here. I actually have more experience playing against the slower but more resilient RUG list with Intuition, and I've typically kept some number of counterspells in. If you can interact with a Chalice on 1 and/or an Exploration/Manabond without counterspells, you have less of a need, but you really need to be interacting with those spells. Stopping Gamble/Intuition is also okay; it slows them down but it doesn't stop them, although sometimes the game ends if they resolve these. It can also occasionally be a good play to counter a P.Fire or Loam and then eat it with DRS or Surgical Extraction it, as you said. Lately, Lands has been bringing in Molten Vortex against Delver decks, and that's another 1cc spell that you don't want to allow to resolve.

    Overall, I think there are enough actual spells that you want to be interacting with that leaving in counterspells is reasonable. The question would be which ones do you keep... that's a tough call. Daze seems bad, but then again most of the spells you want to stop are turn 1 plays. OTOH, the card disadvantage from FOW can be crippling, especially if you have to pitch a Delver to cast it. A better player than me will have to weigh in.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Doing some practice games vs my buddy's Omnitell deck.. Using Alex Bastecki's list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/318067#paper

    What is the sb plan vs omni typically?

    +2 Pyro
    +1 REB
    +4 Cabal
    +1 Clique
    +2 Surgical Extraction

    Had a hard time deciding what to take out

    -4 Bolts, -1 Forked bolt was easy

    Do you pull out DRS as it doesn't do that much? Probably pull out 1 delver or young peezy for Clique?

  10. #30
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I'd probably pull a DRS or two and maybe 1 Wasteland, at least 1 Angler, but I wouldn't cut Delver or Pyromancer. They are the tools that allows you to win the quickest.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Doing some practice games vs my buddy's Omnitell deck.. Using Alex Bastecki's list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/318067#paper

    What is the sb plan vs omni typically?

    +2 Pyro
    +1 REB
    +4 Cabal
    +1 Clique
    +2 Surgical Extraction

    Had a hard time deciding what to take out

    -4 Bolts, -1 Forked bolt was easy

    Do you pull out DRS as it doesn't do that much? Probably pull out 1 delver or young peezy for Clique?
    With that sideboard, how do you lose to it?

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Doing some practice games vs my buddy's Omnitell deck.. Using Alex Bastecki's list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/318067#paper

    What is the sb plan vs omni typically?

    +2 Pyro
    +1 REB
    +4 Cabal
    +1 Clique
    +2 Surgical Extraction

    Had a hard time deciding what to take out

    -4 Bolts, -1 Forked bolt was easy

    Do you pull out DRS as it doesn't do that much? Probably pull out 1 delver or young peezy for Clique?
    Personally I don't like the Surgical against Omnitell, It's cute to get rid of their Omniscience or SnT with it, but if your discarding their Key pieces and have counterspells you're probably already winning. I would remove the 2 Surgicals and play the 8 removing // - 4 Bolts, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Gurmag Angler -1 Daze. You can argue that Daze stays in on the play and out on the Draw but I think the REB effects are just stronger than the tempo war, as they should be playing around it if they are smart.

  13. #33

    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Not sure if already posted elsewhere but did Bob Huang who won the Legacy Eternal Champs write a report? I'd be very interested in reading his thoughts on the deck. Thanks.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    With that sideboard, how do you lose to it?
    Didn't lose to it. :) Doesn't mean I can't get second opinions on sb options!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness View Post
    Personally I don't like the Surgical against Omnitell, It's cute to get rid of their Omniscience or SnT with it, but if your discarding their Key pieces and have counterspells you're probably already winning. I would remove the 2 Surgicals and play the 8 removing // - 4 Bolts, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Gurmag Angler -1 Daze. You can argue that Daze stays in on the play and out on the Draw but I think the REB effects are just stronger than the tempo war, as they should be playing around it if they are smart.
    Interesting point regarding surgical. Thanks!

    Surgical probably gets boarded in against loam decks?

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    I'd probably pull a DRS or two and maybe 1 Wasteland, at least 1 Angler, but I wouldn't cut Delver or Pyromancer. They are the tools that allows you to win the quickest.
    Thanks!

  15. #35
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkness View Post
    Personally I don't like the Surgical against Omnitell, It's cute to get rid of their Omniscience or SnT with it, but if your discarding their Key pieces and have counterspells you're probably already winning. I would remove the 2 Surgicals and play the 8 removing // - 4 Bolts, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Gurmag Angler -1 Daze. You can argue that Daze stays in on the play and out on the Draw but I think the REB effects are just stronger than the tempo war, as they should be playing around it if they are smart.
    I can understand your point, but in my experience Surgical helps because it isn't usually the 1st Show and Tell that gets through, it's the 2nd or 3rd one after they have forced you to use your counterspells/discard. Between the time it takes to fight the 1st counter war and when they refill their hand enough to go off, that is the prime time to surgical the show and tell/omniscience (if you didn't have the opportunity to get Show and Tell, obviously Show and Tell is better to get rid of because they can still Emrakul you with Show and Tell).

    This video is a good example of how omnitell can grind out grixis delver through multiple countermagic battles:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk1mndluEtM (Dylan Donegan - Delver vs Josh Perline - Omnitell, SCG DC)

    Don't play surgical if they might have Dig Through Time if you can help it, don't want them blanking it.
    Last edited by ironclad8690; 09-03-2015 at 04:50 PM.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaytron View Post
    Interesting point regarding surgical. Thanks!

    Surgical probably gets boarded in against loam decks?
    Hell yes. It might not be as game-breaking against Aggro Loam as it is against Lands, but you can just take Lands completely out of the game with well-placed and well-timed Surgicals.

    It's also quite good against any of the Storm-based combo decks, as most of those rely upon flashing spells back with Past in Flames. Those decks are typically quite fragile to disruption of this sort.

    It's also obviously useful against Reanimator, even though half the time you have to use it to get a single card. But I'd much rather be able to get rid of Elesh Norn than not.
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    I can understand your point, but in my experience Surgical helps because it isn't usually the 1st Show and Tell that gets through, it's the 2nd or 3rd one after they have forced you to use your counterspells/discard. Between the time it takes to fight the 1st counter war and when they refill their hand enough to go off, that is the prime time to surgical the show and tell/omniscience (if you didn't have the opportunity to get Show and Tell, obviously Show and Tell is better to get rid of because they can still Emrakul you with Show and Tell).

    This video is a good example of how omnitell can grind out grixis delver through multiple countermagic battles:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk1mndluEtM (Dylan Donegan - Delver vs Josh Perline - Omnitell, SCG DC)

    Don't play surgical if they might have Dig Through Time if you can help it, don't want them blanking it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delvis View Post
    Hell yes. It might not be as game-breaking against Aggro Loam as it is against Lands, but you can just take Lands completely out of the game with well-placed and well-timed Surgicals.

    It's also quite good against any of the Storm-based combo decks, as most of those rely upon flashing spells back with Past in Flames. Those decks are typically quite fragile to disruption of this sort.

    It's also obviously useful against Reanimator, even though half the time you have to use it to get a single card. But I'd much rather be able to get rid of Elesh Norn than not.
    Thanks for the tips guys!

    Man, there's a lot to learn w/ Legacy. It's a little daunting. Instead of having to prep for 2~3 different matchups, it's more like preparing for ~10+

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    How do you guys board against Miracles with the standard Noah Cohen list? Do you bring in Therapys? If yes, for Daze? Needle, Null Rod, Pyroblasts are obvious...

    Maybe a boarding plan for the classic Jace/Entreat list & one for the Mentor Miracles list would be helpful.

    Thx
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Manipulato View Post
    How do you guys board against Miracles with the standard Noah Cohen list? Do you bring in Therapys? If yes, for Daze? Needle, Null Rod, Pyroblasts are obvious...

    Maybe a boarding plan for the classic Jace/Entreat list & one for the Mentor Miracles list would be helpful.

    Thx
    Discard isn't that great against miracles.

    I probably would only bring in rod, needle, pyroblasts, plus miscellaneous in your board. Out 4 daze, 1 spell pierce, and 1 forked bolt.

    I would definitely keep bolts in just in case there is a meddling mage, mentor, or whatever crap they bring in.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Sulfuric Vortex is pretty good against them as well as REB effects Needles. Bolt mediocre at best and daze is horrible on the draw. They will play around it. The games should go long. Don't over expose play one threat at a time and overload your hand with business.

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