I also agree with bringing in Therapies against Miracles, he was talking about Shardless though. There you really don't want them because it doesn't matter if they have decay, goyf, shardless, liliana or a sweeper, you're just a card behind if you don't hit and that's really bad. Also at some point both of you are in topdeck mode which makes it even worse.Originally Posted by Jaytron
Miracles on the other hand doesn't play to the board, so playing Therapies to attack their hands is really good.
I don't play Therapies in the main, but bring them in against:
- any sort of combo (including elves, burn and infect)
- miracles
- creature decks that show me cards (not delver) like stoneforge mystic decks, Merfolk and goblins)
The matchups they're worst against are midrange decks like Jund/Shardless and delver variants (except UWR).
Thanks!
I think in the past I've been trying to keep cabals in vs Shardless and other Delver decks.
I've been trying to rethink my sb strategies as of late.
Agrippa, I saw your boarding strategies on the delver mirror.
LT, what are yours?
For me, I go:
-1 Daze/FoW (draw) or -2 FoW on the play (Dylan Donegan and Jacob Wilson seem to have a 'never drop under 2 fow on the draw rule')
-2 Cabal (I guess Cabals aren't great in Delver mirrors? Unsure on this)
-2 Probe
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Grim Lava
+1 EE
+1 Darkblast
+1 Dismember
I feel like I should bring in my 2 Baleful Strix too, maybe drop another daze/fow
Painful truths seems a bit risky since our life total is in danger
It's really hard to cast PT around daze. Also when the opponent is ahead on board and hits you for let's say 5 a turn this is like the worst card you can draw/have in hand.
The reason Jacob Wilson at least went with the FoW-rule imo is because he was playing RUG (I never saw him play Grixis). It's just way more tempo-oriented, also due to the lack of Decay there were some permanents you simply can't deal with properly, e.g. opposing Tarmogoyfs or Anglers.
As for our mirror I also leave in 1 FoW just because sometimes you don't have an answer for YP in hand. Angler is even worse since even my sideboard has only Fire Covenant to deal with it which I don't bring in. That said you can answer all of them at least with your own equivalent, in general this matchup seems pretty grindy.
Generally my rule of thumb is leaving in 2 FoW against stifle decks and UR, 1 FoW against aggressive delver decks without Stifle, 0 FoW against grindy Delver decks like UWR and BUG.
Not sure if with the mirror you actually meant boarding against grixis or just delver in general but I suspected the former.
Honestly it's nice to talk about sb plans vs al delver variants.
Dylan Donegan seems to also want to keep 2 forces on the draw vs any deck. I guess that makes sense, because Dazes are pretty lackluster on the draw.
I don't run Decay either, so maybe it makes sense to keep some number of forces in all matches on the draw.
Hm, yeah, there really are some cards around that just shut delver strategies off hardcore, e.g. some enchantments or just a nasty mass removal. Especially since lists like that from Noah are extremely vulnerable to Forked Bolt and -1/-1 x-for-1s which I avoided while building my deck (no TNN, Vendilion Clique, Lavamancer, Strix).
I must admit that I'm a bit of an oddball when it comes to playing this deck. I e.g. frequently saw (pro) people having force and daze in hand on the draw and forcing a goyf on their opponent's 2nd turn rather than Dazing it. I'm just not a fan of that, especially since I believe this deck runs extremely well on a super low land count (that said I also only play 3 cards that cost 2 or more in YP).
I really believe though that you should play according to your style rather than blindly rely on guides. I e.g. tend to keep cantrips that just show me more cantrips while other people might shuffle it for "action", meaning I'm a more defensive delver player than most. Keeping this in mind and the fact that my games tend to go longer (I like to grind with my delver deck, taking advantage of my low land count as my form of card advantage while forcing opponents to throw stuff away e.g. by chump-blocking) I guess my guide makes sense, but it's definitely not the sideboarding guide.
Anyone think about playing jace in the board? It's only 1 more than truths, and obviously way better in the grindy matchups like miracles and shardless.
4 CMC feels infinitely more expensive than 3 in this deck, for me. Jace is great, but I would just rather have 3 cards a turn before.
If there were a Delver deck that ran more lands, like BUG then I would put Jace in the sb.
The deck got first place at the SCG Legacy Classic this weekend. It was the standard Noah Walker list, but featured an Invasive Surgery in the sideboard.
Interesting that he dropped Painful Truths for it. I'd probably try it in place of a Surgical?
I played a few games today/yesterday, went 3-0 Looking for more boarding strategies. I'm running Noah's stock list.
Soul Sisters (budget build, newish player)
I didn't even board against him, since he didn't have a SB, but I probably would have done -2 WL +1 Darkblast +1 Grim Lavamancer
Not a hard matchup, I took it in 2 before he could really build a board.
Burn
Don't really remember, but I think I won off an early DRS+Zombie Fish
Board: I'm not too sure what to board in this matchup, many cards feel "bad" but I went:
-2 WL +Cabal +Grim Lavamancer Not really sure what else I want from the board. Most things feel too slow or useless
G2 Don't remember but I lost
G3 I strip his hand and get a 3 for 1 cabal hitting PoP
Nic Fit
I was playing Nic Fit this time, friend was playing Grixis Delver, He managed to get me in 3, but what do you want to board here?
I feel daze gets useless fast, so I would do the following:
Draw: -2 WL -3 Daze -1 Forked, +2 Painful Truths +2 Baleful Strix +1 Cabal +1 Dismember
Play: -2 WL -2 Daze -1 Forked -1 FoW, Same cards in
I've been back and forth on Surgical in this matchup. Surgicaling Vets seems great if you manage to counter one. Otherwise surgicaling them feels lackluster since they get value already. However, with most lists running Meren, or Recurring Nightmare, maybe it's worth it for that reason? Not sure on Cabal either, since they run a lot of one ofs? However, you can see/cabal their later threats before they can cast them. Dazes and WLs felt much more useless in the matchup. What are your guys' thoughts?
12 Post
G1
Kept a hand that had multiple cantrips, but no countermagic and no threats. I stick a late threat, but he show and tells into a primetime and I still haven't found relevant countermagic.
Board: -2 Daze -1 FoW - 1 Forked bolt +1 Cabal +2 Pyroblast +1 Ancient Grudge
G2
I stick a Pyro, Delver, and Gurmag early, and kill him fairly quicky. He attemps to SnT, and I force it. He concedes after.
G3 (dropped a 3rd daze to bring in FoW)
I stick an Pyro T3, after a T1 wasteland on him.
T4 I Ponder and brainstorm into a probe + cabal. I strip his hand of 2 prime times and an Ensnaring bridge leaving him with a needle and a top. I bolt him his end of turn and swing with a whole bunch of tokens while cantripping and making more. He concedes (maybe a little too early).
Boarding against 12 post felt sort of weird. I thought of bringing Baleful Strix and Painful Truths, but I felt like I really needed the Bolts for reach. Baleful Strix could kill any of his big threats, but I feel if he's swinging in with a huge dude, my window to win has already begun to close. Painful truths, I was on the fence. Again, if the game goes long and I need to reload with Painful Truths, I'm likely in a bad spot anyways? Daze got useless quick, so I could have dropped more dazes for PTs? Your guys' thoughts?
Hey all! Two weeks ago I decided on this deck after playing storm for 2 years and my meta being Eldrazi-infested.
Last week I went with Noah Walkers' list swapping Painful Truths for Flusterstorms:
R1 - Eldrazi, 2-1
R2 - Reanimator, 2-0
R3 - Sneakshow, 2-0
R4 - Grixis TITI, ID
R5 - Eldrazi, 2-1
T4 - Eldrazi, 1-2
Past weekend I played the two Legacy Star Events at GP Barcelona saturday and sunday and won them both.
Saturday:
R1 - Sneakshow, ID (the only other Dutchman with whom I decide to split and ID because of the reward system being weird)
R2 - Shardless BUG, 2-1
R3 - BUG Delver, 2-0
R4 - Uwr Stoneblade 2-1
R5 - Sneakshow, 2-0
R6 - Storm, 2-1
Sunday:
R1 - Concession, weird situation but.. 2-0
R2 - BUG Delver, 2-1
R3 - Storm, 2-0
R4 - Burn, 2-0
R5 - BUG Delver, 2-0
I win a 3390 star points and after the split I get myself 2 Underground Sea and a Volcanic Island.
The deck is pretty solid but I'm not sure if I like the Cabal Therapies in this deck even though I've been playing them for years.
Gratz on your great finishes! What do you exactly dont like about the therapies? Before Noah won the SCG event with this list nobody played those MD but I think they're super awesome in the SB and really important there.
Would you play the 2 Pierce 2 Forked Bolt list instead?
You had really good results against Eldrazi, how went the games against them? Normally a tough MU without AD/Goyf.
Currently playingEldrazi
Congratulations from my side, too!
Since you switched the Flusterstorm and Painful Truths: Would you bring the PT in in grindy matchups? Or was it rather against miracles? Because tbh I'd rather have a flusterstorm against miracles than PT, too. It's worse against midrange decks though I guess.
I'm also not a big fan of the CT mainboard, they're definitely powerful sideboard cards though. It's just that they're strongest in the early turns where you opponent still has enough cards in hands and no brainstorm up. Also they're not good against tempo-decks or decks with interchangeable threats. I really only like them against decks that don't commit to the board so you can attack them on a different angle besides counterspells.
Great finishes Tom!
I'd like to get all your thoughts on my current boarding strategies. The Nic Fit thread seems to be trying to build a boarding database, via a spreadsheet, maybe that would be a good idea here.
I'm on Noah's stock list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399409#paper
Miracles
-4 Daze -2 WL -1 Forked Bolt
+1 Cabal +2 Pyro +1 EE +2 Painful Truths +1 Pithing Needle
Without many ways to remove a resolved CB lock, you really have to rely on ways to prevent it from happening. PT is amazing in this matchup
Shardless
-2 daze/fow -2 Cabal -3 Probe
+2 Painful Truths +2 Strix +1 Grim Lavamancer +2 Pyro
I think some number of counter spells is needed here? If not, you can drop more counter spells to Keep Cabals/Probes
Delver (BUG/ Grixis/Maybe RUG)
-4 Daze/FoW -2 Probe -2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyroblast +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 EE +1 Darkblast +1 Dismember +2 Baleful Strix
I don’t really change my SB plan vs the different Delver variants. Vs BUG I think you can drop the last 2 probes and bring in Painful Truths, as they are typically a bit slower.
Stoneblade
-4 Daze/Fow -2 WL -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismember +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Painful Truths +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Pithing Needle +1 Grim Lavamancer
Maybe: +2 Pyroblast?
Eldrazi
-2 Probe -2 Cabal Therapy -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismember +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Baleful Strix +1 EE
Grudge/EE to pop chalices. Dismember/Strix to kill their big dudes. I feel like if you wanted, you could drop some number of bolts/dazes/fow if you wanted to keep in Cabals. I’m unsure on if Cabals should be kept in in this matchup. They dump their hand so fast that Cabals would be dead very quickly.
Burn
-2 WL
+1 Cabal +1 Grim Lavamancer
Still unsure what else I want to bring in, w/this matchup. WLs are pretty useless.
DnT
-4 Daze -4 FoW
+1 Pithing Needle +1 Ancient Grudge +1 EE +2 Painful Truths +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Darkblast +1 Cabal
Bring in removal, and Cabal since they show you their cards. EE can be a board wipe as well.
Elves
-4 Daze
+1 Cabal Therapy +1 Darkblast +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 EE
Cabal to try and strip their hand before they can combo off. Bring in more removal.
Lands
-2 Daze -1 Cabal Therapy -1 Forked Bolt -1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +1 EE +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Surgical Extraction
I hate this matchup, I really am not sure if this is right lol.
Sneak and Show
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy
Reanimator
-1 Forked bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction
ANT
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Cabal Therapy +1 EE +2 Surgical Extraction +2 Pyroblast
EE can hit their petals/LEDs before they actually want to pop them? Maybe too narrow?
Stoneblade (Keep WL in vs Deathblade, maybe drop an extra FoW?)
-4 Daze/FoW -1 WL -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Cabal Therapy +2 Painful Truths +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Pithing Needle +1 Grim Lavamancer
Nic Fit
I feel daze gets useless fast, so I would do the following:
-2 WL -3 Daze/FoW -1 Forked
+2 Painful Truths +2 Baleful Strix +1 Cabal +1 Dismember
I've been back and forth on Surgical in this matchup. Surgicaling Vets seems great if you manage to counter one. Otherwise surgicaling them feels lackluster since they get value already. However, with most lists running Meren, or Recurring Nightmare, maybe it's worth it for that reason? Not sure on Cabal either, since they run a lot of one ofs? However, you can see/cabal their later threats before they can cast them. Dazes and WLs felt much more useless in the matchup. What are your guys' thoughts?
12 Post (Feels like I need to board the same as vs Combo, as they run Sneak as a secondary win con)
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction
Dazes get useless fast, do you guys think that the Dazes should stay in, and keep the bolts for reach?
Infect:
-2 Angler -4 Gitaxian Probe -2 Cabal Therapy -1 FoW/Daze
+1 Pithing Needle +1 Darkblast + 2 Baleful Strix +2 Pyroblast +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Dismember
Last edited by Jaytron; 04-27-2016 at 10:30 PM.
Thanks!
I don’t like that discard is supposed to be good early game, but in the first turns you're still figuring out what you're up against. Those thoughts combines make Therapy kind of awkward and the Pyromancer synergy too cute to count as a valid upside. I'm not entirely sure what I'll cut them for but as I'm still pretty new to the deck I will test them a while longer before discarding them (pun intended).
I didn't test that build so I'm not sure. I'm fond of both Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce but didn't feel the need for more than one.
Eldrazi felt like it was 50/50. I boarded out all probes and therapies for the creatures and removal spells. I actively searched for wasteland and counterspells. Turn 1 creature seemed like it was a must as was a way to search for wasteland. I neglegted chalice if I was already ahead or winning and kept Force for more problematic cards.
The Painful Truths seems good against some grindy matchups, but not Tempo decks. I think the only time I want to play a CMC3-sorcery is when it's True-name Nemesis.
The Therapies seem good against combo and Stoneblade but I can't think of any matchup else I would like them against. The decks' strategy seems to prevent them from playing their cards and at that rate there's no point in removing them from their hand. I do like the multiple angle hate idea though so I will test Therapy and Thoughtseize in the future.
Thanks! Answers are in bold.
Thanks for your thoughts on SB!
When you board out threats, do you board out all of them, if you are boarding them out?
For example if you prioritize removing Young P/Bolt/Angler vs Sneak/Reanimator.. do you board out All Young Pyros before moving on to Anglers? Are you ever worried about being too threat light in these matchups?
Seems like it's only combo: Sneak/Reanimator/Storm
That depends on the card and matchup. I like Angler more against the Combo decks so in that case I'll remove all Pyromancer first. With Daze and Force against Delver I tend to keep some of each in as searching for either with Ponder or Brainstorm allows you to get the better one for the given in-game situation.
Do you also always keep all Dazes in, in the combo matchups, even if they quickly lose value?
Yes. With Gitaxian Probe they're awesome as you can see when Daze will lose value. Against Storm I think it's wrong to board them out regardless if they will lose value or not.
I strongly disagree with boarding out Pyromancer against Combo over Angler. Fact is that Delver is still your fastest clock while DRS has the role clocking them, disrupting Storm's gy while you're able to hold up countermagic for the enemy's sorcery-speed actions. YP on the other hand is really good with Cabal Therapy and the reason you don't play Duress of Thoughtseize. He's also very unlikely to die which makes him even better in these matchups where the opponent hardly has removal.
Then again I only play 3 YPs and no TNN/Clique since these cards are too clunky with Stifle.
Personally against S&S I board
-2 Angler
-3 Bolts
-1 Forked Bolt
for
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy.
Against Storm I board the same cards, but get a Surgical Extraction instead of the Pithing Needle.
I too agree with this. I auto board out TNN and both anglers vs combo. I usually board against storm like:
-1 TNN
-2 Angler
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Lightning bolt
+1 Cabal therapy
+2 Surgical
+1 Null Rod
+2 REB
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