@MadRhetoric:
I don't play EE anymore, check out my list below. I'd recommend it against Tarmogoyf decks and decks with Chalice and nasty enchantments, though.
@jrsthethird:
I share your (rather unpopular) affection for Stifle in Grixis. You can check my list below.
I hope you bring in your decays against other Delver /Tarmogoyf decks, too. With the stifles to protect our Tropical and the fact that they don't bring in gy-hate for shaman you can cast them very reliably.
Something to think about imo is the Vendilion Clique:
It really doesn't fit in the mana denial plan imo: Not only does it tap you out of stifle, it also draws your opponent into potential extra lands. Without stifle it's not that important imo what they actually have in their hand, we're more concerned about restricting their colored mana so they can't cast everything at once.
All i all I really think that the Clique is good in the Therapy-version because it
a) gives you extra looks on their hand and
b) cares more for the long run and the card quality in their hand
I would instead really recommend another removal in either a Forked Bolt or a Dismember, depending on your meta (but leaning towards Forked Bolt because you have enough answers to Tarmogoyf in your sb).
I find the 5th removal to be extremely important because very often an opponent's drs can put your entire stifle-wasteland-plan to trash (hence I prefer the F-Bolt).
I'd also recommend trying Divert instead of the Painful Truths in the sb: As with Vendilion Clique with this deck you want to hold mana open and this card is just nuts against BUG (and Burn). They very often tap out and 2-for-1-ing them while still maintaining tempo (you can redirect FoW to Divert itself, removal to their creatures and discard to them).
The Fire Covenant is really nice against fair creature decks (including Eldrazi) and the card you want instead of Painful Truths: It's card advantage, too, but not at the loss of tempo like PT is. Instead it gets you ahead on board and you can cast it eot to hold open stuff when necessary.
I really like the package of 1 Fire Covenant and 1 Divert against these grindy fair decks, be it Shardless, Nic-Fit, Maverick or Elves.
Personally I also don't like the second Pyroblast in the sb as it's way less good than the first one:
I want one against every BUG variant and Miracles as well as combo, but the second one can be really awkward at times, I like having an Invasive Surgery instead. this card is also really good against Shardless and Miracles with the upside of being good against Combo (including elves) and Lands, too.
Not sure why you would want the Dismember, is it against Angler? Otherwise a third decay should take the place imo since Dismember often times doesn't kill goyf postboard because even BUG Delver boards in their Strixes. Plus paying life to play around dazes they might or might not have always feels really bad to me. But that's just my experience.
Last edited by Agrippa91; 06-09-2016 at 02:05 PM.
I was thinking this but haven't tested yet.Originally Posted by Agrippa91
These are good points. Honestly I like it more for the flash/flying body than the actual disruption. I understand TNN is better for this but doesn't have flash and the ability to disrupt. I agree that tapping out for a 3 drop is pretty bad, but with flash you can do this with more versatility. The extra peek is great for Therapies in games 2/3, especially since I'm only running 3 Probes.Something to think about imo is the Vendilion Clique:
It really doesn't fit in the mana denial plan imo: Not only does it tap you out of stifle, it also draws your opponent into potential extra lands. Without stifle it's not that important imo what they actually have in their hand, we're more concerned about restricting their colored mana so they can't cast everything at once.
All i all I really think that the Clique is good in the Therapy-version because it
a) gives you extra looks on their hand and
b) cares more for the long run and the card quality in their hand
I'm kinda wondering if anyone has tested Tombstalker. A 2-mana 5/5 flyer is still stupid good. Why outclass Goyf when you can fly over him?
I forgot about this card. Thanks.I'd also recommend trying Divert instead of the Painful Truths in the sb: As with Vendilion Clique with this deck you want to hold mana open and this card is just nuts against BUG (and Burn). They very often tap out and 2-for-1-ing them while still maintaining tempo (you can redirect FoW to Divert itself, removal to their creatures and discard to them).
I was thinking about Surgery, but I was wondering how often we get delirium against combo decks. 3/4 of it is easy (Instant, Sorcery, Land), but the only other card type in the deck is Creature and we don't have a way to reliably put it there ourselves. We have to depend on our opponent countering/killing something first. Against fair decks (and Lands/Loam decks) this is likely, but against combo decks like Elves/Storm, how likely will they kill our guy so that we can get delirium?Personally I also don't like the second Pyroblast in the sb as it's way less good than the first one:
I want one against every BUG variant and Miracles as well as combo, but the second one can be really awkward at times, I like having an Invasive Surgery instead. this card is also really good against Shardless and Miracles with the upside of being good against Combo (including elves) and Lands, too.
I'm worried about being shut off of G mana and I don't want to commit too many slots to something that may become completely uncastable. I see you're running a second Trop in the board to support the 3 Decay/1 Grip; I don't think I want to go down that road. 2 green cards is 2 more than I'm used to in the past and I'm not sold on going deeper than that.Not sure why you would want the Dismember, is it against Angler? Otherwise a third decay should take the place imo since Dismember often times doesn't kill goyf postboard because even BUG Delver boards in their Strixes. Plus paying life to play around dazes they might or might not have always feels really bad to me. But that's just my experience.
I was also considering Flusterstorm, Baleful Strix, Spell Pierce, Rough // Tumble, Disfigure, Darkblast, and Submerge as sideboard slots.
What is your single Hydroblast for?
Decay:
I have tested with my configuration against a friend who ran RUG, then Hymn-BUG and now Stifle-BUG and it's just a really solid card against their goyfs. More then one is sometimes shady when your mana doesn't come together, but since you can precent your opponent from casting goyfs for quite some time with wasteland/stifle/daze I'm very satisfied with boarding in 3 decays and 1 trop (which makes me less defensive with my stifles).
Clique:
Just my thinking, I just tested with it a bit tbh. Your reasoning seems solid though.
Tombstalker:
BB is a LOT to ask for this deck. You basically never want BB so you can really only cast it if you get either both of your Useas (which leads to bad mana) or if you have a DRS live for a turn. I think Tombstalker might be way too demanding on your manabase.
Invasive Surgery:
You really only need the Delirium against Life from the Loam decks. And since these run at least one kind of removal, often times even Punishing Fire, Delirium is very accomplishable in these matchups. Against Storm, S&S, Miracles, Elves and Shardless though you really don't need the Delirium. Of course it's nice to see their hand and all that but it really isn't necessary, it's just an envelop (a really underplayed card) here.
The thing that puts it over the top for me though is that it can just get your opponent's Loams without him having the chance to do anything about it. With stifle and decays lands is actually a really winnable matchup (went 2-1 and 2-0 against it in Frankfurt).
Hydroblast:
1. I really don't like how the standard Noah Walker list has like no chance against burn (which is a rather winnable matchups with the right sb cards).
By merging my orignal 2 pyroblasts and 2 surgicals into 1 se, 1 pb and 1 invasive surgery I made room for an additional card that really helps me win this matchup more consistently. Reason being of course that I play more on the lower tables than Noah Walker might where Burn is a thing.
2. I also just like it against Blood Moon (which is rather good against this deck if it gets resolved), especially in Miracles (where it also hits PB and Staticaster).
3. It's just really good to untap with YP in delver mirrors, sometimes it can just win the game by itself. Being able to protect him from red stuff for one turn can be crucial (Bolt, Rough, Lavamancer). It also stops opponents' YPs from hitting the board.
4. Against lands being able to counter a Gamble, killing a Sulfuric Vortex or safe your DRS from a Punishing Fire for 1 turn can just win you the game.
To your sideboard choices:
Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce:
I honestly think that Invasive Surgery is just the better card since it actually hardcounters stuff. Even storm can play around flusterstorm by playing their discard first.
Rough // Tumble
This card destroys almost every creature you play. I wouldn't play it and fear it every time I play against RUG (another reason for Hydroblast).
Disfigure
I guess you mean Dismember. Dismember gets worse when you play Baleful Strix since it grows their goyfs. I honestly don't know why Noah is playing this card.
Darkblast
I honestly am not in love with this card since people value it too highly imo. I'd rather play a more versatile Forked Bolt in the sb tbh.
Submerge
I think we have better options in our colors. Also Tarmogoyf doesn't see as much play as it used to, at least in my expression. I'd go for a more general answer to big creatures.
Baleful Strix
I think this card is too passive. My friend has it in his BUG stifle list and it's there to "counter" my angler, but when he has it out I just sit back and wait for a removal. That said it grows his goyf, so I like it way better in his deck than in Grixis.
I completely agree with all the points on decay. I would love to run it, but the thought of either having it on turn 2 and not having red until turn 3 or only being able to cast it turn 3+ both seem unappealing.
Baleful strix has been one of my best sideboard cards. I would have never chosen to play it but I'm so glad I tested it after seeing it in Noah's lists. Against the fair creature decks, it's a guaranteed 2 for 1 that kills their best creature, that sometimes gets in for damage, and costs 2 mana. I've considered going up to three specifically when I know I'll run into at least 1 eldrazi player in a tourney.
I was skepticall about Decay for obvious reasons (it makes your mana base, land selection a lot worse) but trying a list similar to Peter White's (undefeated top 8 in a 300 players event) i realize that in certain metagames you win more than you lose. This is my list:
Its very better vs Chalice and Counterbalance matchups, being worse vs Storm and maybe Delver decks (not a lot tested). It has 19 lands to support Decays and a strong side vs Lands and other grindy matchups (not Eldrazi in my LGS).
MAIN
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
SIDEBOARD
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
After some testing and discussion with my friend (and going about 7 games in a row losing to Miracles) I switched up the list to a Therapy list without Stifle and took the next match. Maybe I was just running bad, but I do really enjoy the Therapies too. I'm still on the fence on which option is better, but I feel that right now, with a week to prepare for the big event, Therapy plays more into my natural ability than Stifle does. I tested a friend against Eldrazi and stomped him all 3 games; granted he was using my test list (Top 8 SCG Legacy Classic list with Metamorphs) and not too familiar with the deck, but he seemed impressed when I nailed a blind Therapy on his Matter Reshaper.
Currently testing the following changes to my preceding list:
Main:
-4 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce
+3 Therapy
+1 Probe
+1 Forked Bolt
SB:
-1 Therapy
-1 Surgical
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Painful Truths
-1 Dismember
+1 Divert
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Hydroblast
Stifle is definitely a card you have to be comfortable with, I agree.
I'm not sure if I'd recommend Divert without stifle though. For the card to be effective you really need to hold it up as often as possible, especially in the early game.
Good to know, I'll keep that in mind.
Anyone else surprised to see so many Grixis Delver decks without Abrupt Decay in their 75?
Not really. It's a fairly real cost to dedicate the slots and move the mana around to support the Decays. Grixis Delver already has a fair to even matchup against Miracles and Eldrazi (where AD would help hit Chalice) so it's a matter of weighing whether that cost is worth it. It may not be.
It depends on the metagame i guess. In a miracles and eldrazis world AD is very good, but at the cost of losing punch vs combo and mirror.
I agree that Eldrazi is about even, especially when you calculate post-board, too.
Miracles though feels quite unfavored imo. Not as much as let's say Lands, but still pretty unfavored. I mean just ask any Miracles player what he wants to play against all day and he'll tell you delver decks.
Question for those of you who have played both Grixis and 4C...
Is the 3rd Volcanic really necessary in Grixis (Noah Walker version)? The standard 8 fetch 3/2/1 Dual mana base seems ubiquitous, but in all of my games I rarely, if ever, have fetched up the third Volcanic. Is it possible that a 9th fetch is actually a reasonable replacement here? The only dual I actively protect is the 2nd Underground Sea, and to be honest I tend to use more Black mana than Red over the course of most games due to Deathrite activations. The main deck also has 8 Black cards vs 7 Red cards.
As a side note, I am not running any RR sideboard cards (Sulfuric Vortex).
How do you all board against Shardless BUG regarding Therapies vs Dazes? I am not playing the stifle list. I had 4 therapies against shardless but the games where visions didn't resolve or wasn't cast felt like I was drawing them to frequently. I'm thinking 2-3 Therapies going forward.
Relevant question for me too; due to incompetence on both mine and a seller's behalf, I will likely have bought an entire set of Underground Seas by EE4 and only two Volcanics by then.
4 Therapy seems like a lot against a deck that's trying to get hellbent anyway. Daze is solid if uninspiring, but Therapy is still good early since they should be leaving in Forces. I'd go with 4/2 Daze/Therapy on the play and 3/3 on the draw, possibly substitting a Pyroblast for a Daze.
Hi Guys!
Im new to the deck and want to ask for what match up baleful strix and winter orb are in SB???
Think that MD you only need black for gurmag and DRS activations (and cabal therapy if u play them). Tropical acts like the 3 U. sea when u want to cast DRS. Also, is nice when you have 2 volcs and you can play a pyromancer and still have an open red for bolts.
Baleful is great vs big creatures decks, as Eldrazi or Reliquary decks, and good vs creatures decks as delver decks, shardless and D&T.
Winter orb is great vs all grindy matchups, as Lands, Miracles or Nic Fit, and i saw people playing it vs Shardless (not worthy in my opinion)
Thank you VERTUK!
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