Building the correct sideboard is daunting so here's a comprehensive list of cards this archetype is interested in using. Let me know if there were cards that I missed or if you have any new tech. What cards you put in a sideboard depend on if you are playing the 4 Gitaxian Probe 2 Cabal Therapy (stock) version of the deck or the Stifle version of the deck as well as the meta you play in.
Graveyard Hate:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Small Creature Hate:
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Electrickery
1 Fire Covenant
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sudden Demise
1 Engineered Plague
Creature Hate:
1 Baleful Strix
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Terminate
Artifact Hate:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Null Rod
Counterspells:
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Spell Pierce
Discard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique
Value:
1 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Multi-Purpose:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
Color-Based Hate:
1 Chill
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Deathmark
1 Submerge
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Mind Harness
Yesterday i tested winter orb vs shardless bug and it gives me games 2 and 3. Pretty good if u combine it with a gurmag. Both games he didnt have drs ir i could kill him. I played just one matchup so it needs more testingOriginally Posted by Realize
Where's Winter Orb?
I would add winter orb, murderous cut, hydroblast, and invasive surgery.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
Went 6-3 at EE4, started 0-2 with a loss to the mirror (he drew the nuts both games) and Lands (same), then I went 5-1 through the rest of the event to earn $100.
Round 3 - Infect - Pretty good game 1, game 2 he was getting in for 1 infect every turn I had to finagle a way to block his Necropede with my Delver so I could stick my Lavamancer. Only got me up to 6 poison, and it was pretty easy from there.
Round 4 - Big Red - one of my old friends from NYC; this was a total blowout. Had answers to his immediate threats and pressure to close it out.
Round 5 - Lands - another old friend from NYC; won game 1, lost game 2 to a naturally drawn Marit Lage, and 3 Deathrites on turn 2 got there game 3.
Round 6 - Reanimator - Lost game 1 to Grizzy, game 2 was super durdly. He drew EEs for my Deathrites, but otherwise all lands, and I drew all countermagic. At one point my hand was 3 FOW, 3 Daze, 1 Pyroblast. He tapped out to hardcast Griselbrand and I hardcast Daze on it. Felt so good. I found pressure shortly after and closed it out. Game 3 Deathrite got there; he tried to stop my Deathrites with an EE on 1 with 2 lands untapped. I Dazed it so he couldn't pop it right away and then dropped a Needle next turn to shut it down.
Round 7 - Grixis Delver - Really good interactive matches, but I felt like I was in the driver's seat the whole time and closed him out handily both games. Notably, he Wasted both my Seas game 1 so I had to fight hard over a DRS so I could stick an Angler to finish him.
Round 8 - Belcher - I punted this matchup. Never saw a FOW all 3 games, and only got game 2 off of a bad Belch (3 cards and then 2nd Taiga for 8 damage) and then a topdecked Grudge. Soft permission wasn't enough.
Round 9 - White Eldrazi - I asked to split prizes ($50/ea), but he asks what I'm playing first. I don't want that to have a bearing on our split, so we play it out. I find out I'm the 5th Grixis Delver matchup he's played that day. Anyway, game 1 is pretty fast; game 2 I have a key Fire Covenant to wipe out a Smasher that was carrying a Jitte before he can grab counters. I close it out shortly after.
My last Volcanic Island came the day before so I was good on mana.
18 lands
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Pyro
2 Angler
1 Clique (irrelevant; either didn't draw it or sided it out. Didn't see many matches it was good in.)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
4 Probe
3 Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
SB:
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Covenant
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
Because of the prevalence of Lands in my meta, I dropped the awkward Decay for a Submerge afterwards, and may try to find room for a Kolaghan's Command. May also move the Clique to the SB and run a miser's Stifle main.
Hm, this Spell Pierce in the board seems weird to me. In which matchup where you board this in wouldn't you rather have an Invasive Surgery or a Flusterstorm?
There are relevant targets in most matchups that Spell Pierce hits that neither Flusterstorm nor Surgery do (any Chalice decks, Miracles lock pieces, Lands accelerants, etc.)
so you side in Spell Pierce against Miracles, Eldrazi and Lands? Seems rather weak tbh. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it as a 1-of in the maindeck because it's versatile, but for my sb I definitely want cards that are really good against specific decks.
I agree, you really want your SB hate to hit hard and guarantee a hit of disruption. Spell pierce is good as a miser MD to catch all, but POST board you should be bringing in cards that answer specific threats to the problem cards in the MU. It's a good play early on with a flipped Delver or when you're attacking your opponents mana with Wastelands, but I don't think you'd want to draw it late in the game versus other solid answer cards. Plus, you do not always flip your Delvers and tapping out may be essential to finding a threat you need or looking for the hard piece of disruption. Maybe it's decent with the stifle plan on to disrupt mana but in my opinion there are better cards.
Gratz on the finish.
I would really add 1-2 Winter Orb to the SB, the card is just bonkers in the current metagame. I talked to Noah Walker on FB and he said he was very happy with 2 Orb in the SB and would play them again. No out to a oposing Gurmag Angler or big Tarmogoyf/Eldrazi whatever is a mistake in my opinion. 1 Dismember or 1 Murderous Cut should be in your 75!
I have to disagree with your statement about the Vendilion Clique. "1 Clique (irrelevant; either didn't draw it or sided it out. Didn't see many matches it was good in.)"
Out of 9 rounds you had 6 MU´s where the Clique is good or solid to keep in the postboard games (Lands, Lands, Reanimator, Belcher, Eldrazi, Big Red), against Lands you just can take away they´re Loam or Gamble, against Eldrazi I really like Clique because it´s a unblockable Flyer in the air + takes away they´re strongest card in hand at the end of the draw step. In all the other MU´s you had (combo) clique is just a hatebear which beats and disrupts them. Sure with Cc3 she´s quite slow but if you not reach T3 against them your dead anyways, flash eot is great to Keep up mana for Flusterstorms, Pierces etc...
About the Pierce Boarding debate...It´s reasonable vs Miracles but really bad against Eldrazi & Lands.
The SB in general Looks a bit iffy but ok...
Greetings
Currently playingEldrazi
I think it was more that I didn't draw the Clique. I love the card but it just wasn't relevant for me at all this weekend. Part of the nature of one-ofs, I suppose. Divert was a similar card; only time I drew it I needed to pitch it to FOW.
I will find room for Winter Orb. I already took out the Painful Truths for a Submerge; not sure yet if I'm happy with it. Handles Goyfs/Marit Lage and the occasional Angler in the mirror (if they have their Trop).
Could you guys give me a short boarding plan vs the following decks? The primer was not very helpful because Agrippas AD/Stifle version is just very different from the "standard" lists.
- Miracles
- Shardless BUG
- Colorless Eldrazi
- Grixis Delver/BUG Delver (without Stifle)
- 4c Loam
- Infect
- Death & Taxes
List is nearly the Noah Walker one...
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Baleful Strix
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle
Thx
Currently playing
Should I be boarding in Painful Truths against D&T? Thalia can make it into a draw 4.
Best way to make good sideboard calls is to know why or how you can lose the match-up and then figure out what cards you have to add to improve the odds.
- Miracles
A grind fro control from Miracle point of view.
>Add Winter Orbs, Pyroblast (for Counterbalance and counter wars), Explosives (counterbalance removal), Painfull Truths (I don't have experience with this in the board and I dislike it, but I can see it work in this kind of match-up) and Needle (for Top). You could add more creatures so you don't run out of pressure fast. You need to understand that you should drop 1 or 2 creeps maximum otherwise you will get sweeped out and lose on card advantage.
< remove Forket Bolt/Dismember/Lightning Bolt unless you think they bring in Mentors. You can choose to keep the bolts and remove the discard pack to be able to hit face with the bolts.
- Shardless BUG
Again a grind match-up from the other side of the table.
> Get winter Orbs, Explosives (Goyf and Strix are on 2 cmc), Lavamancer (for Strix and Delver/Deathrite (note sure what they play).
< Drop the discard pack and FoW/Daze depending who is on the draw.
- Colorless Eldrazi
They hit fart and hard. Eldrazi creatures are genrally bigger then yours, kill them and then grind it out.
> Add Strix, Explosives (for Chalice and Endless One), Grudge for the Chalice and occasional disco balls. Can add Needle for Endbringer.
< Lose the discard pack, it's prober;y too slow since Eldrazi runs into topdeck mode fast.
- Grixis Delver/BUG Delver (without Stifle)
Sort of mirror. BUG will add sweepers from the board, Grixis will do the same as you proberly. Getting board control and card advantage is how you will win this.
> Get Strix, Lavamancer and Pyroblasts.
< Drop either FoW or Daze depending on the draw.
You could toy around with the amound of Discard in this match-up. It can be davistating or useless.
- 4c Loam
The big grind from the other side of the table. Destroy the Loam or die trying.
> Get Winter Orb, Surgical and Needle. You can try to add Truths and Grudge (for the Moxes)
< Drop discard pack
- Infect
Wants to win with either a single big hit or a few small hits. Try to deny the creatures on the board.
> Grab Strix, Lavamancer and Pyroblasts (counter or kill the Agent or counterwars), Needle the infect land. Explosives destroy their creatures even if the pump it, so get it and put it on one or two before popping it. Winter orb could help, not sure about that one.
< Drop discard pack. You want to be able to counter or destroy everything.
- Death & Taxes
D&T fights for board control.
> Grudge for the equips or Vial. Needle for the same and Mom or SFM. Winter Orb can make their land hate nullified or wreck you more, I don't know how this will end up. Get Strix and Lavamancer for board control. Explosives is good to blow up Moms and Vials. You can use the Wasteland or the same color mana to get it on 1. For higher numbers Talia won't mess with this one. Personally I like 2 Therapy in this match-up to hit on the fetched equips with SFM. You can go up to 3.
< Drop the FoW. Vial and Cavern will make you cry seeing this card. Depending if you want to keep the discard pack in, drop a few Daze or drop a few Probes.
Just a few hints. You'll need to make the deck fit your own playstyle and swap cards side (or main) accordingly.
To the D&T matchup (which seems very similar postboard since I board out 3 Stifles):
-You can set EE for 1 with Thalia out if you cast if for X is zero, but pay the Thalia tax with colored mana. I'm very sure about it because Joe Lossett told a story about this on his stream.
-You can sometimes target waste with itself if you desperately need a certain color and have DRS out, but your opponent doesn't have lands you can hit. You don't have to target another land.
- Winter Orb seems abysmal in this matchup. I heard it's already a gamble in Shardless, I really can't imagine it being good against a tax deck. I haven't tried it out though, just theorycrafting.
- I really like 2 Forces in this matchup to keep the opponent from going bonkers. Personally I go for the long game in this matchup, grinding them out with my value of flashbacks (therapy, grudge), lavamancer, pyromancer tokens and Fire Covenant/Forked Bolt while I make certain to keep Brainstorms for the last possible moment.
Forces here generally are there to target cards I can't deal with otherwise, most importantly RIP when the board is even (otherwise I just power through and save FoW for whatever interaction they have left). Also forcing a Mother when you have no removal in hand or a creature or equipment that threatens to give the opponent value is very good imo.
Dazes seems nice otp when you're on the tempo plan, then you have to play the matchup accordingly though, I'm not too familiar with that style).
- Personally I really like Probes and Therapies in this matchup. The former give you a really good impression of their hand, I normally fire them off as soon as I can since they won't change their hand via cantrips etc. so it stays the same a long time. I don't find the lifeloss to be significant in this matchup.
Therapies on the other hand are not really dead even in the lategame since they just "counter" a SFM when he gets topdecked. They're also good whenever you opponent "saves" Thalia with Karakas. In the early game they can destroy the opponent's hand since D&T generally gets out of the gate rather slow.
To the Delver mirrors:
- Imo there's an important difference wether you're playing against a delver deck with stifle and a delver deck without stifle.
I agree with Draggo that against a traditional BUG/Grixis opponent it's most important to have as much removal as possible and gain tempo, forcing your opponent to use his cantrip ineffectively and grinding him out.
The main difference with stifle delver decks is that you can't just jam in tons or removal and no counters. You'll find yourself getting wasted and stifled off at least one of your colors most of the time, I had opponents show me their hand after the game with 7 removal spells in them because he didn't board in any flusterstorms and boarded out all FoWs.
You need to be aware that whenever your RUG/BUG/Grixis opponent attacks you with stifle AND creatures you need more than one kind of answer (which makes it that awesome to play imo).
I strongly suggest bringing in any Flusterstorms you have and siding out your Therapies (tempo is an even bigger factor when the opponent has stifle imo). I also don't like FoW tbh since it gets countered rather easily by Spell Pierce, REB, Flusterstorm etc.
Gitaxian Probe can be really good to see what the opponent has in store for you and playing around it as best as you can.
Personally I wouldn't recommend playing around stifle like it's said so often ("crack whenever they're tapped out"). This not only makes your brainstorms and ponders worse, but also makes you really succeptible to wasteland cutting you off a certain color*. On the attricion side it can very well be that you play too many lands this way (with brainstorm basically forcing you to play an additional land each time) and your opponent just outgrinds you with more stuff in play and more cards in hand instead of all these lands on the battlefield. You should rather force your opponent to hold open stifle while you prepare for an answer in the form of flusterstorm or pyroblast.
Remember that your opponent has nothing going for him if he just holds up stifle, but has no pressure on board to force the initiative on you. You will eventually just draw out of it. Try 1-for-1 trading whenever you would have to discard, drawing non-fetchlands can be really key here to be able to cast ponder/brainstorm to find counters for stifle and additional lands.
*example: You have a volcanic, and usea and a fetch. You shouldn't crack the fetch because your opponent can waste you off a mana otherwise. Instead let him keep open stifle if he wants to, optimally you'll get in a spot where you can fight over it with Pyroblast/Flusterstorm/Daze easier.
Thx alot for the advices guysI talked to Noah this week about the boarding strategies but I did not liked the that much. Especially the plan against Eldrazi for example. He boards out all 4 FoW here which I strongly disagree with! He brings in 2 Therapys (so 4 after boarding) instead but that doesnt prevent a T1 Chalice Otd or top decked stuff etc...I really like FoW in this MU even IF they have cavern because IF they have it they´re game plan gets much slower and they´re not able to lay down T1 Chalice/Mimic T2 TKS whatever which I´m super fine with + FoW still counters the "lock pieces" or removal like Chalice, Thorn, Trinisphere, Jitte, Ratchet Bombs, Dismembers...
I think Winter Orb is worth bringing in against Shardless BUG, they´re deck is so full of clunky cc2 cc3 spells that it really hurts them. Especially with Wasteland + Bolt on the Shaman. This deck can operate easily on 1 mana and if we have Shaman out or a Daze which super fine.
I would never ever bring in the Orb vs DnT! Same for Painful Truths! The orb supports they´re gameplan better than ours. Aether vial on the side of them is a really good synergy with orb. So a no go for me. I recognized that Therapy gets baorded out alot and I think Stifle is a good call in the current metagame especially with the 2 Orb SB. Maybe I will switch later to the stifle version but I will test therapy 1st.
Stifle is super weak in the Eldrazi MU but other than that it´s really strong right now (Miracles, Shardless, Delver). It´s not like we loose the Therapy, I would still play them as a 4off in the SB. The only thing which lead me to play the therapy version over the stifle one is that the stifle Version only have space for 4 removal spells MD which I find a bit to low (6 is my personal standard in a delver shell).
I think I will got with the following strategies and see how it goes...
Miracles
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 1 Painful Truths
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 2 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Dismember
- 1 Wasteland
Eldrazi
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Lightning Bolt
Shardless BUG
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 1 Painful Truths
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Gitaxian Probe
Death & Taxes
+ 2 Cabal Therapy
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Gurmag Angler
Infect
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 4 Gitaxian Probe
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Gurmag Angler
Delver Mirror
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 2 Force of Will
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Gitaxian Probe
Currently playing
Yeah that's pretty much what I think of that deck too.
"fast and hard" is what I meant to say, basicly the same though...
Boarding out the Anglers against D&T as Manipulato suggest is a bad call I think. It's the biggest creature you have and bigger then anything they bring to the table. If you fear for RIP, then take out one. But if you land one it's a house. Runs through or blocks the Batterskull any day.
How are y'all doing against the new Miracles hotness: Predict Miracles?
I can't tell if it's better, worse, or about the same as the traditional 4 Entreat the Angels + Jace lists. I feel like they have a ton of answers in Swords, Snap+Swords, and the usual Terminus stuff, while doing better at taxing our resources in the form of must-answer Monastery Mentors.
Pros:
They miss land drops with a lower land count.
No Jace to bounce Gurmag Angler.
Shakier manabase, can be susceptible to Wasteland (I still side out at least 2 for games 2 and 3, though).
Cons:
Actual card advantage in the form of Predict.
They drop threats earlier with Monk (or even Snapcaster) and they get out of hand QUICK if you can't remove them.
Because of the above, you can't just cut a bunch of Lightning Bolts for games 2 and 3.
Swords, Snap + Swords can be a beating after the 3rd or so resolution -___-;
Last night I played 5 games against a 4x Predict, 4x Mentor list (4 post-sideboard) and went 3-2 -- though one of the games I won would definitely have ended in a draw had there been a time limit (Note to self: only cast Winter Orb if I already have a threat on board and another in hand...). However I think I'm more like 3-4 or 3-5 against the deck on MTGO (my decklist on MTGO is Noah's list with some minor SB tweaks).
Current Paper decklist:
Land (18)
1x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
Sorcery (9)
1x Forked Bolt
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
Instant (19)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce
Creature (14)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Young Pyromancer
Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Baleful Strix
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Darkblast
1x Dismember
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
1x Winter Orb
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Surgical Extraction
My sideboard plan is:
-4 Daze, -2 Wasteland, -1 Probe, -1 Ponder, -1 Forked Bolt
+3 Cabal Therapy, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Needle, +1 Painful Truths, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Engineered Explosives.
The games I tend to win are the games where I stick a Young Pyromancer and get at least 1 token immediately, then protect it.
Thoughts on my SB plan and the match in general?
I'm fuming right now. Just lost 3 matches in a row on MTGO, 2 against Miracles (1 Legends, 1 Predict), and one UR Delver.
I didn't feel like I could get anywhere against Legends. Early lock game 1 and game 2 I slowed him down and flooded out. Almost got there with Delver when he ripped an Entreat.
Izzet I got killed by Lavamancer game 1, game 2 I got there, but game 3 he get getting gas while I flooded out again. I get really frustrated with Divert because I know he has a Bolt in hand, but he also has another land so I tap out for an additional creature. He untaps, Ponders, then casts the Bolt with only 1 land untapped. I thought he would play around a 2 tax soft counter and play Bolt first, but I would have swung the game in my favor if I had mana up. I feel like this always comes up when I have Divert; I've never actually cast it.
Predict Miracles got me game 1 with all 4 Terminus in the first 20 cards, but I couldn't find a shuffle effect to redistribute my library and then he got the lock. He also hit me with a Predict after I revealed for Delver, which sucked. I got there game 2, but game 3 I landed a turn 1 Needle on Top, then DRS. I Daze the first CB, then he plays a second the next turn. I cast a Delver, he reveals a land, fetches, and then reveals EE. I'm sitting here with Flusterstorm in my hand. Great. He blows up my board next turn and lands a Top, neither of which Flusterstorm does anything against. A couple turns later I draw my Angler, swing, and then Pyromancer next turn. Match clock is running low for me so I jam Pyro to put a one-turn clock. I have Pyroblast/Daze/Fluster in my hand so I figure I'm Terminus-proof. He draws it, casts it, and I build up storm before casting Fluster. He has a Fluster of his own and blows me out.
I never rage like this playing paper but losing to the nuts on MTGO really sets me over the edge. Ugh...
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