Double black is quite taxing on the mana. I remember playing BUG Delver and thinking double black plus all the green cards forced the deck to play a later game than it wanted. Though Sinkhole is a blow out.Originally Posted by Dissection
Stifle and daze play very well with each other (mana denial and soft countermagic tend to). I would cut anglers, spell pierce, and forked bolt to play stifle.
Just got completely shut out for the first time ever in a daily event. 12 post 1-2, Miracles 1-2, Miracles 1-2.
I don't know exactly why I did so poorly, but oh well.
I am going to give this a try:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pyroblast
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Dismember
The idea is that Dark Confidant will help in the Miracles matchup and provide more card advantage while overloading the opponent's removal. The issue is that Delver won't flip as often, but with the added mid-game power that shouldn't be an issue.
Because Sinkhole can't bait out those Hydroblasts when you need Pyromancer to stick.
Knew I was missing something, thanks!
with a sticking Pyromancer Smallpox is much better than Sinkhole.
If you go the deep land removal route we might drop the heavy red list for
YP
DShaman
Stifle
Smallpox
Sinkhole
may be Dark Confidant
SB Hymn and Therapy for combo/control
I'll give it a try.
Grixis can pack very powerful planeswalkers as well...
And when you don't have a Pyromancer Smallpox is miserable for you too.
that'a why 4 Sinkhole and 2 Smallpox would be a fine start.
4 Stifle 4 Shaman and 4 Wasteland as well
Shaman and Smallpox go terribly together.
Are you guys just not aware of the Grixis Delver lists that have been doing well, or do you actually think your builds are better? If you're on this forum looking for advice on your build, the first thing I'd suggest is not to get too fancy.
Smallpox, Sinkhole, really? Come on, those aren't playable cards. One tournament should be enough to tell you that (if you couldn't tell by looking at the deck). Dark Confidant is so much worse than Gurmag Angler, and it should be obvious from any loss to a fair deck why that's true. Just in case, I'll explain. You need a fat, cheap creature that can't be easily blocked or Bolted, unlike every other creature in the deck. If you want card advantage, play Dig Through Time. If you want to win, play Dig Through Time.
Edit: I suppose I should preempt the "you don't know anything about the deck comments". I picked this deck up cold last Thursday. I've gone 11-1 in matches over the past 3 weekly tournaments with Bob Huang's list, each with 25-40 (mostly seasoned) players. His list is the gold standard until the meta shifts.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I agree that Bob or Noah's list is the logical starting point for someone coming to the deck for the first time, though I also think that there's plenty of room for tuning and variation.If you're seeing a lot of combo, moving a Therapy or two to the main makes a lot of sense. I run into Miracles a fair bit, so I've been very happy with keeping two Decays in the board since it lets me cover Mentor and Counterbalance with one slot. The optimal graveyard hate package is an open question. I'm not in love with additional 1-toughness creatures, but I suppose TNN is at least worth discussing, unlike Bob, who really has no business being in the deck (unlike in BUG, where he really does solve a significant problem).
But you're right that once Stone Rain, Sinkhole, and Smallpox are being seriously discussed, the thread has gone way off the rails.
I just like to try to forecast next meta.
Imho 12posts mana will be veeery common.
There are way too many good colorless things around in battle for Eldrazi.
Also something versatile enough that removes Chalice should be considered, like Abrupt Decay.
Yeah, the Bob list was terrible (Bob as in Dark Confidant, not Bob Huang, whose list is amazing and definitely the stock list). Definitely tried to get too fancy. I would love if someone with more experience could take the deck onto MODO and record a couple of videos, the Miracles players on there are really dang good. I am 1-5 in matches against Miracles in the last week alone, so I obviously need some help in the matchup. Mzfroste in particular I think I have only ever beaten 1 game and it was because I got really lucky. Phazonmutant how do you board against them?
Well, I just went 3-0 in a DE with the list below:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dig Through Time
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sulfuric Vortex
I faced Miracles (2-1), BUG Delver (2-0), and Miracles again (2-0).
I believe the big difference is how I approached the Miracles matchup post-board, as well as getting a better feeling of when to commit more creatures to the board vs holding them to avoid getting 2 for 1'ed by Terminus.
OUT: 3 Deathrite Shaman, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Daze, and 1 Forked Bolt
IN: 3 Pyroblast, 2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Dread of Night, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Vendilion Clique
I used to board slightly differently (not cutting shamans, cutting all dazes, cutting a Gurmag, etc), but this configuration felt the most coherent.
BUG Delver had a slow start game 1 and couldn't answer a Gurmag Angler, game 2 got a TNN but I had him on the back foot the entire game and he succumbed to Bolts and Shaman activations.
Oh for sure, there definitely are room for some tweaks based on the meta. I'm a little dubious of green spells in the sideboard after playing several variations of 4c Delver with green spells and now this URb list - I found having to fetch green early can really mess with the curve, or require keeping more lands than ideal off Ponder and Brainstorm. I think if you really want to beat Miracles that Null Rod or Sulfuric Vortex are better choices, but Decay definitely has its merits.
Right for once?
There are so many reasons that's not going to happen. 12Post is a ramp deck, and that archetype historically attracts fewer players than control, tempo, or spell-based combo. It's also expensive with niche cards like Candelabra. What's more, the Eldrazi in this set suck. The biggest reason though is that it's just not very good. You should already be close-to-favored against them thanks to a full complement of Wastelands, Force, and discard. A more likely place for the metagame to go is for more people to pick up Merfolk and UR/x Delver decks. Grixis been doing well despite not fully saturating the Delver population, and Delver and Merfolk traditionally have attracted plenty of players when they're good.
Looks like you figured it out. I like keeping in Gurmag unless you know they'll board in Rest in Peace, and not bringing in Therapy or Dread of Night (unless they're on the 4 Mentor version). I would never cut Deathrite Shaman - it may be a crappy threat, but it turbocharges your most powerful draws, and can put some pressure on them. What you highlighted is crucial - you have to have a good understanding of when to commit to the board and when to hold back, which is dependent on your hand and your read on their hand. Play the matchup a ton and you should get better at it.
With your list I like -3 Daze, -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Wasteland, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Sulfuric Vortex on the draw, and from that +1 Daze, -1 Lightning Bolt on the play. That does depend on the player - if they respect Daze game 2, board them all out game 3. Wasteland is very rarely effective against them, and some Miracles players say Delver players should board them all out. I don't agree with that, but cutting 1-2 is good. They're a creature control deck, so you can't really afford to cut any threats.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Interesting set of results today:
Grixis Control: 0-2
Esper Mentor: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
Infect: 2-1
RUG Delver: 1-2
Lands: 2-0
Shardless: 2-1
First 3 were in a daily event, last 4 were at my local store. I got pretty lucky in the lands matchup.
Wow, 2-0 vs Lands. That's amazing, hahaha. Great results!
hey every one i like to hear opinions about this deck losing tier1 if dig gets band? i have the bob list but dont own the cabals and since b&r is close i dont know if i want to buy cabals or shardless agents. i played bug for a while until dig killed hymn. just like to hear opinions
As a Tempo deck we're not too reliant on Dig. It gives us some late-game reach but we really don't want to get to the late game. The deck won't function much differently. It's the resulting metagame that determines whether this is still a Tier 1 deck.
I for one think dig through time is one of the biggest things this deck has going for it, and without that card the deck would return to tier 2 status. It does a lot of important work. I do not think it will be banned though.
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