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Thread: [Deck] Grixis Tempo

  1. #1501

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    I won the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Delver, 75 can be found here. I copied a Bob Huang list a couple months ago and replaced a Price of Progress with the Flusterstorm before the challenge. I ended up going undefeated in games until game 2 of the finals vs Egget on Red Splash DNT. My actual matchups over the event were

    2-0 Bryant _Cook on TES
    2-0 ItsUnfair on Miracles
    2-0 JPA93 on Sneak and Show
    2-0 Gul_Dukat on Grixis Delver
    2-0 viscoulius on Eldrazipost
    2-0 Egget on Red DNT ( Magus and Direfleet Daredevil MB)
    2-0 exSIN on TurboDepths

    Top 8

    2-0 ruckus-mh on Sneak and Show
    2-0 kentaro_hokori on Grixis Delver
    2-1 Egget on Red DNT

    Fortunate that I didn't get any real tough matchups like Lands, the most difficult being Egget. Direfleet Daredevil is the real deal, I don't know if it will be enough to shift the core DNT build to RW over Mono White but there is certinetly a lost more incentive to do so now. Not particularly spectacular went down for me, they were typical enough Delver games, and those where the gameplan broke down, the power of patience and Gitaxian probe got me there. In particular, game 3 of the finals I kept a 7 held together by a Grim Lavamancer, t1 probe to see Path STP and Orzhov Pontiff all ready to take him down. But since I knew that I was able to grind through the removal with a Delver to soak up 1 and a Pyromancer + Therapy to get the last 2 and a creature I can't remember. I also had a nice g2 win vs Eldrazipost where he was able to cast and resolve a Newlamog with Chalice on 1 and Sphere on board.

    I liked the Flusterstorm well enough, but more for Miracles / 4c Control than combo itself. I have a pretty stock 7 in 7 out against all Combo decks, so the Flusterstorm had the potential to be gravy there, but some of those 7 are lower impact than others so it still made a difference. Other considerations for that slot were a 2nd Grudge, a Dismember, or 3rd Surgical. I evaluated my needs based on what sideboard games I find myself wanting more cards to bring in, not necessarily what my worst matchups are. For example against Miracles I want to bring in more cards than I want to take out so thats not a matchup I'd want to add a sideboard card specifically for. For DnT I feel like I could always make room for more hate. But Grudge is fairly narrow in application where as Flusterstorm is potentially live against many medium matchups so I still went with it to see how it would go, and I didn't hate to see it (unlike the Liliana the Last Hope I tested, the matchups I planned to use it in, I ended up not really wanting to cut anything for).

    I'll answer any questions about the challenge or my general play of the deck, though I'm sure most of you have more experience with it. I started playing it exclusively early December and have 236 match results recorded, but most of that is learning the play of the deck and sideboarding strategy with what I have, not any real evaluation of the card choices of the deck. That 1 sideboard spot is the only card in the 75 I've done any experimenting with.

  2. #1502

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mzfroste View Post
    I won the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Delver...
    Incredibly impressive on yet another Challenge win, congrats and way to go, man! I am curious as to what your side plans are for for the mirror and the +7/-7 you mentioned vs combo.

    EDIT: Also, thats a hell of a gauntlet of good players you thrashed on your way to win this week.

  3. #1503

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Against traditional combo (Storm, SNS, Reanimator) I side out 2 TNN and the 5 Bolts. I do change it up if I for some reason expect stuff like Xantid Swarm, Grim Lavamancer or Monastery Mentor sideboard cards, but as those are much less common than they ever were, I haven't had to bring them back in g3 much at all. Against Ant and UB Reanimator I was bringing in 3 Therapy, 2 Surgical and 2 Blasts. Against BR Reanimator I was bringing in 3 Therapy 2 Surgical 2 Edict. Against Sneak and Show I bring in 3 Therapy 2 Blast, and then change up the last 2 spots based on what build I think they are (4 Sneak Attack, Omni with Intuition, Traditional with the 2-3 Omni). They may be the 2 edicts, the Pithing Needle, or Surgical Extraction. Sometimes if I want an 8th card I'll cut an Angler, but I try to avoid that. But its such a clean sideboard plan, the "easy" 7 out 7 in, I don't want to put more sideboard cards in for combo and find myself not bringing them in.

    I've found a similar situation with the Mirror and Miracles. I've tried a bunch of different cuts in the mirror, but I've settled on just a clean cut of 4 FOW, bringing in 2 Blasts, 1 Lavamancer, 1 Kcommand. Originally I was cutting a probe in place of a Fow, and trying to keep in a 2nd by either cutting a 2nd Probe or not bringing in a Blast or the Kcommand. But while there are some times I find myself wanting a FOW or losing a game I've taken over because I Probed away 2 life, much more often I find myself with a ridiculous advantage by having a turn 1 Probe, or being able to grind it out once I've avoided the Dazes and Wasteland locks and by having that probe, and would rather have a swinging spell like Kcommand rather than a FOW to brute Force my way through. Obviously every game is different, but thats whats worked for me. Specifically that I only have 4 cards I really want and 4 cards I'm comfortable cutting. If I had a 5th card to bring in there isn't anything left I'm excited to cut, I'd probably just end up not bringing in one of the blasts.

    As for Miracles, its a bit different. I really want to bring in the 3 Therapy, 2 Blasts, 2 Surgical, and now the 1 Flusterstorm. I also kinda want to bring in Needle. Meanwhile the only things I want to cut are 3 of the 5 bolts. I've been cutting the 2 Angler, 2 Wasteland, and now that I'm trying to bring in an 8th card, I've cut 1 Daze on the draw, having yet to play a postboard game with Flusterstorm on the play I haven't given though to what I would cut in that case. But I'd like to keep in one of those Wastelands for Search for Azcanta and the Volcs, as most Miracles players are playing REBs postboard now. So I can't really justify having any more anti Miracles cards, even if its a tough matchup, as it wouldn't be that much more effective than what I'd be cutting for it. I even had Lilana of the Last Hope in with that matchup in mind, and ended up not bringing it in as there wasn't anything left to take out.

  4. #1504
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    You find the full playset of daze to be worth playing vs Miracles? I've been cutting 2 Wastelands and 2 Daze to make room for the cards I want as I feel Daze has a very short timespan of being relevant. I don't love Fluster in the matchup as you can rarely get Terminus and it doesn't interact with Jace/CB/Azcanta. I like Needle for shutting down Jace or a flipped Azcanta.

    Congrats on yet another win, well played.

  5. #1505

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Congrats mzfrost.

    Reading your comments on siding is very enlightening especially when the deck is so hard to modify with so little flex spots.

    I do have a question as to why you don't use izzet staticaster when siding in the mirror and when you're considering siding it in? (Elves maybe? Although she comes often a bit late to really matter doesn't she?)

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

  6. #1506

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    The way I treat the mirror is I want to be as proactive and aggressive as I reasonably can. I don't want to go too deep on answers, I just want to be able to be casting my spells. So basically as long as I avoid getting wasted out I just want to be punching my opponent in the mouth. Izzet is both too expensive, 3 mana being a lot in the mirror, and too low impact, only stopping Pyromancer, the singleton Lavamancer in the side, and as of yet to be flipped Delvers. That leaves DRS, Angler, TNN and flipped Delver to still kill you. I'd rather it be the cantrip or much lower to the ground answer. To give an example, my last match in the mirror the only threats I cast were 2 DRS and an Angler. My opponent had to use his Staticaster as a chump to buy him time, and lost the game with a Pyroblast in hand. Not to say that pyroblast isn't worth bringing in, but there is a big risk to bringing in too many answers in the mirror.

    As for what I use it for, DNT is where it gets most of its work, and that is a matchup we need all the help we can get. Elves as well, and any cretaure deck I notice an excess of X/1's. I used to bring it in vs Depths, but they tend not to expose Hexmage until its ready to be used, and I also find the best way to beat them is just be as fast as possible, so no 3 mana 0 power creatures for me.

  7. #1507

    [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Hello
    I played grixis for the first time at my LGS yesterday. Your sideboard tips 7 in and 7 out was very useful, mrFrozt, thank you.
    My list is influenced by my experiences playing Canadian: 2nd TNN for 6th removal MD and 2:nd TNN in the board for the grindy match-ups.

    M1 I faced mono black griselstorm and did the 7 out 7 in plan. In g3 he used a transformational sideboard, which i did notice - i saw him siding out a pile of cards, and put some removals back in.
    M2 were versus elves. I realised my deck was badly equiped fighting elves with no sweeper and Lili as the only recurring removal. I brought in what removal i had (edict + abrade + lili) and 2 therapy, 1 fluster for 4 fow and the two anglers. My reasoning was that stripping their hand makes glimpse-hands worse and anglers will never deal damage vs elves. I did get a 2for1 with a therapy then flashing back to take his hoof before he could cast it, so therapy felt real.
    However, I played pretty bad, the MU felt even worse and I lost 0-2. Thinking in retrospect, i am not sure i actually want a sweeper in my board... maybe just accepting this one guy on elves being a horrendous MU?
    M3 versus grixis pyromaner (with therapy and preordain). This MU felt unloosable. They are a slower version then us, and playing DRS makes us even faster. Both games i kept doubble daze hands and he tried to play around it at all times. I think it cost him the game: when he finally started making things it was already too late. I boarded out 1 angler, 1 push, 4 fow for 2 blasts, 1 TNN, 2 therapy and winter orb. Thinking afterwards i think pyroblasts was wrong. He sided out jace and i can race TNN. Keeping push and the third therapy would have been better i think. These games made me see that there's some great synergy between daze and therapy.

    G4 versus as foretold living end. Lost G2 by bloodmoon into combo, won g3 off winter orb as he tapped out. I boarded out 5 bolts plus TNN and in with 2 blasts, 2 artifact hate (for chalice), 2 therapy.

    I'm happy for any feedback on my deck board and boarding.


    Deck: Legacy Delver Grixis.dec

    Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

    Creatures:14
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Young Pyromancer
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Gurmag Angler

    Spells:28
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Forked Bolt
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Ponder
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Lands:18
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:15
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    3 Cabal Therapy
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Winter Orb


    Created with Decked Builder
    http://www.deckedbuilder.com/
    Last edited by JackaBo; 01-25-2018 at 05:10 AM.

  8. #1508
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Hello everybody, I really like this archetype and unfortunately I don't have all the duals needed for the optional manabase. I just have two underground seas, one volcanic island, one tropical island and one badlands. Should I run shocklands or should I just go with some basics? Could you please suggest an alternative manabase with aforementioned restrictions?
    I prefer running therapies in the SB but I see a benefit in running them maindeck if I have badlands. Thanks.

  9. #1509
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    M2 were versus elves. I realised my deck was badly equiped fighting elves with no sweeper and Lili as the only recurring removal. I brought in what removal i had (edict + abrade + lili) and 2 therapy, 1 fluster for 4 fow and the two anglers. My reasoning was that stripping their hand makes glimpse-hands worse and anglers will never deal damage vs elves. I did get a 2for1 with a therapy then flashing back to take his hoof before he could cast it, so therapy felt real.
    However, I played pretty bad, the MU felt even worse and I lost 0-2. Thinking in retrospect, i am not sure i actually want a sweeper in my board... maybe just accepting this one guy on elves being a horrendous MU?
    Sweepers in the board are useful for more than just Elves, they can come in against D&T, other Pyromancer decks, Maverick, and Storm if they are relying on an early EtW to get there. I usually keep Forces in against Elves and cut Dazes because they can easily produce the mana, and stopping NO/Glimpse is paramount. Forked Bolt and Izzet Staticaster are pretty solid against them and other creature decks and is another good SB option. It really just depends on the balance of decks you see in your local meta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    Hello everybody, I really like this archetype and unfortunately I don't have all the duals needed for the optional manabase. I just have two underground seas, one volcanic island, one tropical island and one badlands. Should I run shocklands or should I just go with some basics? Could you please suggest an alternative manabase with aforementioned restrictions?
    I prefer running therapies in the SB but I see a benefit in running them maindeck if I have badlands. Thanks.
    Grixis is an incredibly mana intensive deck that can't really support basics. You are only running 6 real lands, so getting Wasted off of a color would be really easy if you have any basics. You could *maybe* get away with an Island, but I'd rather run Shocks. Obviously Shocks are less than optimal (especially with Daze), but having access to all of your colors is more important than the damage you are taking.

  10. #1510

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by apistat_commander View Post
    Sweepers in the board are useful for more than just Elves, they can come in against D&T, other Pyromancer decks, Maverick, and Storm if they are relying on an early EtW to get there. I usually keep Forces in against Elves and cut Dazes because they can easily produce the mana, and stopping NO/Glimpse is paramount. Forked Bolt and Izzet Staticaster are pretty solid against them and other creature decks and is another good SB option. It really just depends on the balance of decks you see in your local meta.
    Thanks. The point about cutting dazes instead of forces is a really good advice. May I ask you, do you run 1 sweeper then? Do you run spot removal as well? What about edict(s)? I was thinking that I want to run fire covenant because it's awesome and I'm soft towards old-school cards but maybe Izzet statiscaster is better.

  11. #1511
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Thanks. The point about cutting dazes instead of forces is a really good advice. May I ask you, do you run 1 sweeper then? Do you run spot removal as well? What about edict(s)? I was thinking that I want to run fire covenant because it's awesome and I'm soft towards old-school cards but maybe Izzet statiscaster is better.
    I've got 1 Edict/1 Push/1 Staticaster in my board at the moment, though that changes frequently. Everything is a balancing act with Delver, so cutting Edicts/Pushes makes you weaker against decks that can land fatties which you will have a hard time dealing with otherwise. In terms of sweepers you have access to Elecktrickery, Fire Covenant, Dread of Night, Izzet Staticaster, Marsh Casualties (if you run 3 Sea) and Sulfur Elemental. Jitte, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, and Izzet Staticaster are all good as well.

    Sideboarding with a deck like Delver is a mix of luck and skill. You want to be 50% across the field but your sideboard simply can't accommodate what you'd like against each deck. The skill piece is reading your metagame, knowing the strong/weak players and MUs and how you line up against them. Beyond that you are just playing the match-up lottery each time and sometimes your SB choices pan out and sometimes they don't. Grixis Delver, like all Tempo strategies, wins on thin margins so the more you play the better you will do with it.

  12. #1512

    [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mzfroste View Post
    I won the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Delver...
    Congrats on the win! I played against Egget on RW D&T, as well but with 4C Loam. Flashing back my Swords to Plowshares and my Toxic Deluge was brutal. I wonder how serious “red snapcaster” is going to be.

  13. #1513

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    Hello everybody, I really like this archetype and unfortunately I don't have all the duals needed for the optional manabase. I just have two underground seas, one volcanic island, one tropical island and one badlands. Should I run shocklands or should I just go with some basics? Could you please suggest an alternative manabase with aforementioned restrictions?
    I prefer running therapies in the SB but I see a benefit in running them maindeck if I have badlands. Thanks.
    I would run shocklands over basics, though it depends a little bit on your local meta. If you have a ton of other Grixis Delver, Burn, etc players, shocklands could lose you a meaningful amount of games. If you have a lot of Miracles, Turbo Depths, Sneak and Show, etc decks that don't pressure your life total, shocklands are basically the same as duals. I really can't see running basics, so the main question for me would be "do I run a 'Watery Grave and Steam Vents' or 'Badlands and Steam Vents'?" Best of luck in upgrading :)

  14. #1514

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by apistat_commander View Post
    I've got 1 Edict/1 Push/1 Staticaster in my board at the moment, though that changes frequently.
    I just upped my Forked Bolt count to 2 (both in the side) in lieu of running a Push. It seems better more frequently as it can knock out 2x Baleful Strix (or a Strix and SCM, YP and a token, etc) and it also kills almost everything Push kills (Leovold is what comes to mind). Is there a reason (other than Leovold and susceptibility of getting cut off/taxed on Red) that you think Push is better than another Forked Bolt? Hydroblast is another reason, but it's already so taxed with Bolts, YPs, Blasts, Staticaster, etc.

    I've been seeing a lot of the mirror and Pile/Grixis control decks. I'm running a TON of removal in the board. 2x Blasts, 2x Forked Bolt, Edict, Staticaster, Grim Lavamancer, and Abrade. It bears mentioning that I'm running 3 Therapy main, so that tends to help my Combo matchups out of the gate.

  15. #1515

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Hi all!
    Longtime lurker, new poster here. I have played some variant of delver since before the DTT ban, but do by no means consider myself an expert in the field of flying bugs.

    First off, congrats on your win in the challenge Mzfroste. Since you have logged a decent amount of matches with Bob Huang's main, maybe you can share your opinion on a few topics.

    1. How do you feel the deck operates with 15 threats? Do you find that you are threat flooded or is this necessary when the meta has a high proportion of fair decks?
    2. Are the counterspells enough interaction against combo G1?
    3. Do you have an opinion about this versions strengths/weaknesses vs. cabal therapy/stifle builds?
    4. Why would you bring in blast over fluster against ANT or UB Reanimator (or is this from before you added the fluster)?
    5. How do you usually utilize surgical against miracles? Is it for “countering” snap or the second terminus or for removing their few relevant spells proactively (StP, terminus etc.)? I found this approach underwhelming before, but have not revisited it after the top banning.

    On a different note, do anyone have access to the general sideboard plan Bob used at tournaments at the end of last year? It would be nice to have it as a reference for developing my own approach to sideboarding with this build (as I have mostly played the CT version earlier).

  16. #1516
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    @Mzfroste,

    I see you've done some tweaks to your SB plan with the latest 5-0, curious your impressions on 2x Dismember. What matchups are you bringing those in and have they performed well for you?

  17. #1517
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Now that I see the list, can someone enlighten me on Price of Progress? I'm on the Bob Huang list as well and I'm doing fairly okay with it, but I replaced PoP with Sulfuric Vortex, also as a tool to more or less shut down PunFire-Grove engines (plus it's good against Miracles and Czech Pile imo).

    Is PoP a dedicated tool for those lands / TurboDephts decks? I can't really see the benefit of running that card...
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  18. #1518
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Adan View Post
    Now that I see the list, can someone enlighten me on Price of Progress? I'm on the Bob Huang list as well and I'm doing fairly okay with it, but I replaced PoP with Sulfuric Vortex, also as a tool to more or less shut down PunFire-Grove engines (plus it's good against Miracles and Czech Pile imo).

    Is PoP a dedicated tool for those lands / TurboDephts decks? I can't really see the benefit of running that card...
    Yes, the mid atlantic area is pretty well known for having A LOT of loam players (both lands/4c loam). I would not bring it in against turbo depths though.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  19. #1519
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    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    Does anyone have a link to a decent sideboard guide for this deck? (I'm on Bob Huang's 2 pierce list.)

    I've been playing it for the last couple months and I think I'm getting a decent hang of the deck, but I'd like to compare my sideboarding strategy with a more experienced sideboarding guide, if there is one available.

  20. #1520

    Re: [DTB] Grixis Tempo

    What do you think about playing 3 Wasteland instead of 4 main in Grixis? I remember playing against a lot of Grixis builds with Ur Delver and all of the players told me they boarded 1-2 Wasteland out since I am able to fetch on Basics and Wasteland was often a dead card. Currently I am also playing Grixis Delver and my meta has a lot of combo decks which can fetch on Basics also such as Sneak Attack, Food Chain, Storm, Aluren, etc. Im wondering about playing only 3 Wasteland main to avoid drawing to many of them. I know that in the mirror they can be quite devestating but I feel like often they dont do what they should do (so more of a meta choice) and I often have to play a mulligan if Wasteland is the only land on the opening hand and dont have blue mana to play Brainstorm and Ponder. Anyone else tested only 3 Wasteland main? How did it run?

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