Hi guys!
I'm new into Grixis. I played for a while the UR Delver version with Young Pyromancer, Stifle and Wasteland.
Now I would like to learn how to play Grixis.
Can anyone explain to me wich start is better in the most common Legacy match-up?
I want to understand WHEN play DTS or DoS on T1.
Maybe already exist a sort of this list in an article or old post in the thread.
Thanks! :D
In my opinion the DRS start is almost always the best start for the Deck, especially if you have Daze and/or Wasteland in your hand. The acceleration is very useful in Turn2 and 3 so it can lead to plays like Turn 2 Pyromancer + Wasteland or Delver, Bolt & Wasteland.
But in general I guess Delver is the better start against Decks where racing matters like Eldrazi or Sneak and Show.
If your opponent plays Cabal Therapy in his Deck it is viable to play the Card which you have more than one in your hand first though.
I've been exploring various SB strategies vs Miracles to see how we can improve the matchup. It seems the conventional SB plan is to cut almost all FoWs and Dazes.
I'm currently testing cutting some (or all) DRS in favor of keeping in FoW. I feel that many times being able to Force a Teriminus can be back breaking for Miracles.
DRS is always disappointing in the match up... Good vs Snapcaster mage, but a poor clock compared to YP or Delver, the downside is losing a threat and the card disadvantage of FoW (which is why it's normally cut.)
By no means am I saying this is correct...just sharing what I'm testing. Anyone tested this or have thoughts on the above??
EDIT: Also I find Flusterstorm very weak vs Mircales and in everything but combo matchups in general where we are already heavily favored, especially post board. I have been testing 0 Flusterstorm in 75.
In my opinion cutting the Dazes against Miracles is totally fine, regardless if you are on the play or on the draw. I find many Miracles players who actually playing around Daze, when casting Swords to Plowshares on your first Creature in their Turn 2. Like this you still generating tempo, while not having the Card in the Deck anymore. This is a great tempo advantage for us. I usually cut the Forked Bolt als well, since it doesn't kill Mentor reliably and cannot kill Jace once he Brainstorms. Keeping all to 3 Lightning Bolts makes sense, as they give you reach for the late Game and kill Mentor.
I usually only bring in 2 Pyroblast, Flusterstorm when I have it, one Card like Bitterblossom/Liliana/Sulfuric Vortex and 1-2 Surgical Extractions but not Cabal Therapy as Miracles players Hand changes very fast and they have Brainstorm and Flusterstorm to prevent you from Card advantage.
With this Sideboarding strategy I am currently at a even Win Rate against Miracles.
Hey EronRelentless,
I just noticed this deck on MTGGoldfish. Was this you? Any thoughts to share on that tournament?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1017386#paper
https://i.imgur.com/DkXMKpW.jpg
I think this is what I'm taking to GP Seattle. I have found that I am not good at playing with Spell Pierce, hence Therapy (also the extra removal slots SB are nice).
I like to board into infinite spot removal, especially vs decks like Elves where an easy line is Delver -> Removal or counterspells every turn for the rest of the game (I have a match recorded vs Reid Duke somewhere where this happened).
Here is a mini-sb guide I have been going by:
Mirror:
Out: 2 Cabal Therapy, 4 FoW
In: 2 Diabolic Edict, 2 Marsh Casualties, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember
Pile:
Out: 4 Force of Will
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Miracles:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Daze
In: 2 Pyroblast
Storm
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Cabal Therapy
Sneak:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Diabolic Edict
Reanimator:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Diabolic Edict
Lands/Turbo Depths:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Diabolic Edict
Elves:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Daze, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Death and Taxes:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, 1 Gitaxian Probe
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Maverick:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
BUG Delver:
Out: 4 Force of Will
In: 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt
Stoneblade:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
In: 2 Pyroblast, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict
Moon Stompy:
Out: 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Forked Bolt
In: 2 Ancient Grudge
Eldrazi:
Out: 2 Force of Will, 2 Daze, 1 Cabal Therapy
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember
Aggro Loam:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Cabal Therapy
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt (No surgical, we are not the control deck)
Hope this helps!
Thanks for sharing!! I really like the infinite removal you can bring in post board as it helps immensely vs most of the medium/bad matchups. I love the no Flusterstorm as I've been testing without that recently...glad to see another person agreeing.
Some random thoughts on the SB choices:
No Surgical vs Miracles?
No Lily vs Mirror?
How do you feel about Lands matchup without PoP?
You know, idk about the miracles plan. I think actually you also want to cut a Wasteland for a Cabal Therapy and maybe a Daze for Lili.
I mostly just opt for TNN or Gurmag beats vs Lands, of course a nice DRS or Edict draw can get you there too.
I like to become sleek in the mirror so that I can still try to cast my cards even if i'm mana screwed. Lili didn't fit that plan for me, but if it works for you go for it.
Also I think vs Lands you actually want to cut the therapies and leave 2 bolt. Vs turbo depths maybe cut something for a Grudge to deal with pithing needle.
I think the Therapies are fine since you play them maindeck..you just need to name Gamble, the Discard Land-Deal 2 damage Enchantment (can't remember the name.) or Crop Rotation.
I get your point int he Mirror too, my thought is Lily is just another threat that's good to have in the mirror, but it may just be better to stay lean as double black is difficult. I never fetch for the 2nd Sea until I absolutely need to.
Hey.
Since beginning of March I was starting a Spreadsheet of my Tournaments in real life and Leagues on MTGO and at the moment of now I have 269 total games with Grixis Delver within this time.
I mean this is not a crucial sample size by any means, but after one month I was logging each game and kind of procedure I realized, that my Game Win Rate against BR Reanimator differs very high, whether I was on the draw or on the play. There were also 3 Matches against Ewlandon (current Trophy Leader tied with LewisCBR) within, so it means that we don't have to assume the result came against bad players.
Surprisingly my win rate on the draw is way higher than on the play. Currently it looks like this:
On the draw: 84,62% (won 11/13 Games)
On the play: 35,71% (won 5/14 Games)
Sure we have to assume many factors which come together for this, and maybe we should cut the pre boarded Games, to have a clearer view, how the Matchup can play out if both players play with the optimal configuration for the Matchup.
If I look at the post board Games we have a similar view:
On the draw: 100% (won 8/8 Games)
On the play: 44,44% (won 4/9 Games)
If we look at the Matches against Ewlandon we also have an evidence that the result can be better if you be on the draw:
On the draw: 100% (won 3/3 Games)
On the play: 25% (1/4 Games)
If you combine all factors, I know that my Deck configuration (with 2 Spell Pierce) is bad pre board, but If I draw in SB Games I win a high number of times against BR Reanimator.
After all, I am sure this is a much too low sample size for doing strategic moves for all of you players, but it would be nice if you share this idea and discuss about it with your friends, and maybe if we have a much higher amount of data it proves to be correct, what nobody would believe if you tell this to him/her.
As Bryant Cook once proofed that he has a higher win percentage against blue Decks on the draw than on the play and I look at the data above I think that it's generally better for blue Decks to be on the draw against VERY FAST COMBO Decks. I hope to proof this within the next months, as I am planning to play the Deck further. Maybe at end of 2018 we have a bit more data we can assure to.
This is really fascinating... the reasons I can come up with for being on the draw:
1. They don't want to go off turns 2-4 for fear of being blown out by Daze, Spell Pierce.
a.So the extra draws are good:
b. You draw into more answers.
2. This is a two small sample size and it's causing this be very misleading.
Reasons going first against them are:
1. Faster clock with Delver.
2. Daze and spell pierce is very live.
3. You're ahead in tempo.
Well I think it's a misunderstanding of Cards like Daze and Spell Pierce to think, these are not live on the draw in the Matchup. As the Reanimator Deck is really light on mana and every card the player has, it could be an extra Lotus Petal/Dark Ritual and your Daze is a dead Card anyway. I mean it's tempting to dodge the Chancellor, Dark Ritual, Entomb and Reanimation starts if you have Daze Backup and be on the play, but how often do Reanimator players really have this start? I guess we talk about a 1/10 ballpark of the Nutdraw hands, which are really hard to beat even if you are on the play anyway. I would like to enhance the reasons for being on the draw with some arguments.
1. You are more resilient to Mulligan for Hands with heavy interaction
2. You generally have more Cards to recover after a Force of Will start where you might pitch Delver/Ponder/Brainstorm
3. The chance for going off in Turn 1 is slightly lower for the Reanimator player with less crucial Cards for him/her, time is in our favor
4. Your Cabal Therapies get more potent as you have a better chance to draw Probe as well and see their hand to not playing it blind and additionally the Reanimator player need more time to recover from your Therapy, even if the chances for getting a 2for1 with it decreases.
Last edited by EronRelentless; 04-06-2018 at 09:12 PM.
What do you guys think of Noah Walker's GP Seattle manabase with only 7 fetchlands in favor of the 3rd Volcanic Island? A friend of mine had suggested the idea last week and I initially dismissed it out of reverence for the "super established Delver manabase" sacred cow, but seeing Noah making that choice certainly forced me to re-evaluate the idea. 3 Seas 2 Volcs is definitely better than the old 3 Volcs 2 Seas, but still, with the amount of Wastelands being played, only having 2 sources of a certain colour is always going to be a liability in certain matchups. The downside is obviously less shuffle effects and more starting hands where we are stuck with a particular colour of mana, so I'd like to hear other opinions on this...
When I started playing Grixis Delver in October last year I always had a problem running the established 3 Volcanic and 2 Underground Seas because keeping a single Volcanic on your hand doesn't let you cast both of your T1 creatures because Shaman requires B or G which doesn't work with a Volcanic. I changed it to 3 USea and 2 Volcanic back then and was much more statisfied with the build. Still people could cut me from red with only 2 Volcanics so there was this kind of "problem" inside Grixis Delver I never really felt comfortable with the deck and prefered the more aggressive Ur version of it. I also tested the build with the 3/3 split and 7 fetchlands and have to say I rather see a fetchland which let me cast Shaman than a Volcanic which doesn't. Grixis Delver relies much more on UB than on UR so you mainly want to start with an Underground Sea and T2 with an Volcanic which you most of the time digged for with Ponder and Brainstorm. Starting with Volcanic while having Shaman on your hand is NOT how the deck works imho.
I have been playing 7/7 duals and fetches too. I also feels that it's super risky to have all your 5 removal on red and only 2 red sources outside of shaman, especially in the delver mirrors or vs DnT. I haven't really had much problems with running 7 fetches yet but i guess there's a small percentage of worse starting hands. On the other hand 7 actual lands have been solid versus Lands.
Hi, I'm new to this deck since I mainly play control. So I have a few questions that maybe you can help me figure it out:
1- How do you manage your Dazes postboard. I've heard that on the draw you have to take them all out. Is that so for all matches? Would you keep it against control on the play?
2- What answers do we have to B Moon? It seems like we're unprotected from enchanments.
3- Landwise, is the 2 Seas 3 Volcanic 1 Trop the more stable built. Aren't we better off with 3 seas (meaning more black sources)
Thanks a lot
I'm looking foward to playing this deck
1) Cutting some number of Dazes on the draw in certain matchups is definitely a valid strategy, but you should ALWAYS run the full playset when on the play. EDIT: I still keep mine on the draw in most match-ups, and I would argue that players who always cut all 4 on the draw don't really understand how tempo decks work
2) Counterspells or just riding our board to victory. Deployed Shamans can potentially still produce a limited amount of mana, and you can still cast Force of Will and red spells through Blood Moon. This deck does have few ways to deal with enchantments but with counterbalance mostly gone the only real threat is Blood Moon, and thankfully dedicated Blood Moon decks tend to be inconsistent piles of junk
3) 3 seas 2 volcs has been the standard for a while now. See previous post where I encourage discussion on the merits of 3 and 3
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