Invite for Legacy Grixis Delver Discord chat:
https://discord.gg/F64cZk9
Have fun.
I was browsing through the primer and bumped into this surprising thought of Bob Huang.Originally Posted by ironclad8690
My personal experience is that Lands is favored, and that the favorable Grixis matchup is one of the reasons to play Lands in the first place.
BUt apparently Bob Huang thinks differently?
How do you guys think about this?
Doesn't Bob Huang usually play 1-2 PoP in his board? I could see winning comfortably if you have PoP in post board games.
Hey guys, my report of GP Birmingham last week end and some thoughts on the deck:
List:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Side
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extration
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Liliana, the last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dead Gone
1 Dismember
Thursday: Trials (3-1 and 4-0)
I didn't have enough PW points to get automatic byes for the GP, and I think those are extremely helpfull if you want the best chance to play on day 2 or top 8
Early bird last chance trial
R1 BUG Delver 2-0
I attack his mana game one and have a very aggressive stard game 2 to close the deal. My opponents admits he's playing the deck as it has a good MU against Grixis. I have tested a lot this pseudo-miror and it's true they have backbreaking cards agianst us (Tombstalker, even Goyf and Golgari Charm in the side), they are such less efficient than us that I think this is an even MU
R2 RB Reanumator 2-1
I keep a hand without FoW game 1, he plays a faithless looting and discards 2 grislbrands. I play T1 delver and am able to daze a dark ritual on his T2, but he finds his second land and a ritual+exhume on t3. I win games 2 and 3 without difficulty
R3 Burn 2-0
Always a close MU but definitely winnable
R4 Turbo depth. 0-2
He mulls to 5 on the play and goes T1 Petal > Needle name Wasteland. I have a correct hand going DRS into Delver but draw a lot of lands. Nothing happens as I attack for 4 each turns (no spells to exile) and he finds his lands. Unfortunately, he ends up drawing the combo too quickly. Similar game 2 as I get him down to 1 before getting killed by a 20/20 (I had Waste but he had thespian + vampire to get around that)
As 4-0 was neccesary to get the byes, I immediately play in a second trial:
R1 Esper D&T 2-1
Quite a strange brew, splashing for Phantasmal image, baleful strix and Orzhof Pontif. He wins game 1 by copying TNN with 2 images and I win the other games. He helps me a bit by equiping his Image copying TNN with a Jitte
R2 Punishing Cloudpost 2-0
Very aggressive start game 1 with YP on T2, forcing a Punishing fire and 3 bolts going upstairs. Game 2, wasteland + surgical on cloudpost leaves him with a hand of uncastable spells. He continues playing lands and had 1 turn at 7 mana before getting killed when he couldve played all is dust but fortunately didn't have it.
R3 Storm 2-1
I win game 1, game 2 I force him to go for it quite early. He plays Cabal Ritual into PIF, infernal tutor for LED (I had surgicaled his Dark Rituals earlier) to flashback cantrips. He casts 3 ponders, shuffles, uses his last U mana for a brainstorm and finds exactly Swamp, Petal and the lethal tendrils.
I manage to take G3
R4 Mono Red stompy 2-0
A standard player playing Legacy for the first time. He seems to like the deck a lot, and tells me he hasn't lost a game today. I have good hands to beat him with a good deal of countermagic, but his inexperience of the format makes him play right into my dazes and pierce. I take the games 2-0 but think he couldve won both games with more patience.
4-0 for this second trial grants me 2 byes for the main event
Main event -- Day 1
Byes: 2-0
R3 Death and Taxes 2-1
I lose game 1 with a misply: I remember having a pretty good board, with a DRS and a flipped Delver, a bolt in my hand, and 3 or 4 lands. He only has a Thalia, which I decide to bolt. This was a misplay as I didn't care about the thalia, having plenty of mana, and a bigger board than a 2/1 first strike. This leaves me without answers to a SFM, which he plays a few turns later, and the Batterskull wins him the game.
I win G2 and 3, mostly on the back of Ancient grudge which destroys his equipment plan. I think the only strong plan they have against us is SFM as mana denial is meh with our shamans (or they need RIP or revoker+a strong denial plan)
3-0
R4 Lands 2-0
Very aggressive start game 1, attack for lethal through a Marit lage on the last turn. Game 2 I mull to 5 into SHaman, lands, 2 surgical. Shaman gets Punished and my opponent makes the mistake of activating his grove to get back the fire immediately. So I surgical it. He doesn't have another active plan, I end up drawing wasteland which breaks a stage, and I extract it to win a few turns later
4-0
R5 Storm 2-0
He keeps a 1 land+cantrips hands game 1, which matches up poorly against my daze+pierce hand. Game 2 I mull to 6 into double shaman double pyroblast. He cabals my shamans. I draw a young pyro to start a clock and pyroblast a few cantrips, leaving my opponent with a lot of mana but no business and win by quickly attacking with elementals
5-0
R6 Miracles (Thomas Mechin). 0-2.
I take a game loss for an error of decklist (I wrote forked bolt instead of Dead/Gone). Game 2 on the play I keep a good hand going Shaman T1 into Pyro+Probe T2. The probe reveals me a good hand, few lands but brainstorm + terminus. My plan is to inflict as much damage as possible with the pyro, and I have 2 delvers for a second wave after he plays terminus. I get him down to 5. At my EOT, he plays brainstorm, keeping plains+island untapped. I have a volcanic, a sea and a Shaman untapped, bolt, pierce and my 2 delvers in hand.
I decide to try and kill him in response, play bolt (playing around counterspell), but it gets FoWed. The BS resolves, triggering a terminus (not the one I saw in his hand, as he didn't play a brainstorm previously). I decide to spell pierce the terminus, which resolved, but was a bad play, as I know the second one is coming (hoped I had one more turn, if he puts it back second from the top). Spell piercing costs me an activation of shaman.
On his draw step, the second terminus triggers, which resolved. I untap and play double delver. He has swords+ snapcaster swords to get rid of them. I play a brainstorm but don't find anything and quickly die to snapcaster mages
5-1
R7 Eldrazi Stompy
I lose game 1, take the 2nd one easily and find myself in a really good spot game 3: my opponent at 7, empty board and I have a Gurmag. He uses 2 ancient tombs to cast a Wurmcoil Engine, going down to 3. He passes the turn, asking me if I have the bolt. I had forked bolt :(
I don't find ancient grudge fast enough and get destroyed by the wurmcoil
5-2
R8 Eldrazi Stompy
Game 1, we trade resources, I have double Young Pyro, some tokens, and him 2 TKS, a Karn and constructs but he's around 4 life. He resolves a chalice. I have 1 land left, and 2 dazes and a Fow in my hand. He plays an Endbringer, with a cavern of souls, but I daze and FoW it, creating enough tokens for lethal. Game 2, on the play he goes Eye of Ugin double Mimic, but I play forked bolt, and waste him a few times and he can't recover.
6-2
Day 2
R9 Moon Stompy
For the first round of day 2, I face one of my teammates, on mono red, which is a pretty bad matchup, even more so that I know he knows the matchup very well. Game 1 I probe to see his hand of 3 mountans, chalice and 4-drops. A quick clock and counterspells on my part allow me to take the game. I lose game 2 and 3 as expected, don't remember the details
6-3
R10 Burn 2-1
I keep a pretty slow hand game 1 and get destroyed. Game 2 my opponent plays around daze all game. I have a pretty quick clock to try and race. On the last turn, he's at 5, I'm at 8 ad I have TNN and 2 tokens, + daze in hand. He casts Exquisite Firecraft, using all of his mana. Resolves, then he sacs 2 mountains and plays fireblast, which gets dazed for the win. I win game 3 after countering a PoP by wasting all of my lands
7-3
R11 Moon Stompy 2-1
He goes turn 1 mountain go, I leave up spell pierce which counters a blood moon and I find a gurmag to take game 1. I lose game 2 keeping a hand without FoW with bolt, pierce daze and grudge. He plays Trinisphere T1, Magus of the moon T2. I have a plan to grudge the trini and bolt the magus, but he plays a goblin rabblemaster, which I have to bolt instead of the magus to not die. I can't find a kill spell for the magus in time.
I take game 3 with a TNN and enough countermagic
8-3
R12 RUG delver 1-2
I lose game 1 to my opponent's double delver hand. I kept a sketchy hand with Young Pyro, double shaman, double probe and 2 volcanic island. I don't find black mana and get killed. I win game 2.
Game 3 I am happy to keep Dismember, volcanic island, underground sea, 2 fetch, Delver, Young Pyromancer.
He goes turn 1 volcanic go, representing stifle. I play volcanic into delver, which gets dazed. Turn 2, he goes volc go again. I play sea and Yound Pyro, which gets spell snared.
He ends up playing a delver, which I bolt, but I start to flood out a lot, drawing lots of lands and some kill spells, no cantrips, and one shaman which gets burned. I waste him off green for a time but he eventually finds a trop and plays a mangoose which eats slowly my life. I had a lot of turns to find a TNN or Gurmag, or cantrips but keep drawing lands. He doesn't have a lot going on either, but finds a second mangoose, then a 3rd, and when I find a YP + cantrips it's too late and I'm facing 4 mangooses
8-4
R13 Grixis delver 2-0
Another teammate, he mulls to 5 game 1, scrys on the bottom, plays 2 probe then concedes. Game 2, we both keep a hand with 1 land, 1 waste and cantrips. On the play, he goes ponder, shuffle. I waste and pass. He plays a waste and passes. I fetch, play ponder, don't find lands and shuffle. He wastes me. I win because I'm the first to topdeck a land
9-4
R14 BUG Delver
Game 1, I attack his mana and have a clock with a delver. He stabilizes too late and I win. Game 2, he has DRS into double goyf. I take an attack, bolt his shaman, play my own and a gurmag to stabilize the board. I can shrink the goyfs with my shaman, getting rid of all sorceries, so that I can bolt one of them. He plays an engineered explosives to get rid of the shaman and grow goyf bigger than gurmag, which wins him the game.
Game 3, I keep something like 1 ponder, 1 BS, waste and a few non land cards. I think this is a keep in the delver mirror. I don't have the math, but the probability of hitting a land should be high enough. Unfortunately, I ponder and shuffle. He plays sea > shaman. I brainstorm, still no lands. I waste him and pass, telegraphing that I am BS locked and no lands. He plays a waste and I don't find a land for the rest of this (short) game.
9-5.
R15 Grixis Delver w/ stifle.
I win 2-0, don't remember this game a lot, I was very sad to have been ejected out of top 64 last game, even though I was (and am) convinced I took the right decisions and kept the right hands against BUG and RUG delver.
10-5
I am a bit sad for this finished as I've been working on the deck for a bit more than a year hand have had an incredible win rate with it lately.
I think the deck is still extremely strong, as the top 16 decklist posted can attest: it can beat pretty easily decks that are designed to beat it (lands or Mono red stompy for instance). I think the strengh of the deck is its extreme efficiency, playing the best cards in the format and one of the lowest curve. Even if the result of the GP results in more players sleeving up Red prison, I will stick with grixis until shaman is banned
Does anyone have an opinion about BBD's use of Tarmogoyf in the sideboard of his build of Czech Pile he recently piloted to a 2nd place finish to combat the Stompy lists and Grixis Delver? How hard would this be to beat if you knew it was the sideboard plan?
He said it was excellent in his write-up, and I don't doubt it was, but it seems bad if you know its the plan vs. getting caught with your pants down.
Dunno if it is goyf is that effective against grixis delver. TNN blocks it and attacks through it, the big fish is usually bigger (maybe strixes grows goyfs bigger, but maybe not), pyromancer's tokens chump block goyfs for a lot of time and delver just flys over. We usually don't have removal for it (except for people that play fatal push), but as I just explained, I don't think we need it.
I first played grixis delver and won a small tournament last friday.
2-0 beating Br Reanimator
2-1 beating Big Eldrazi
2-0 beating ANT
A question for you all: Is it worth playing one basic island in the sb? In what mu would you bring it in? And does it really help the mu against dragon stompy significantly?
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
I truely dont think it is.
On the play you have a chance to deploy your basic, but a spell pierce would do the same while also countering chalice.
On the draw it's a fifth FOW basically. Unless it's in your hand you're unlikely to ever see it.
If you really want to cast spells through blood moon you may also consider mox Diamond.
I believe that in a heavy blood moon meta the best ber is trying to win through blood moon. That means more red creatures/wincons, preferably not 1-cmc to also avoid chalice. A fourth pyromancer in side or main and perhabs sulfuric vortex in the side. Maybe you want to play more abrade and less grudge, since you wont be able to be flashing back anyway but you need yo kill chalice to allow bolts to resolve.
That makes sense. Even on the play, we tend to play drs out of U sea first and fetch the basic latter. The first moon they play should be answered anyway. But it seems if we have an island on play, we can totally ignore the next moon effect they play. So I am still not sure about that.
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
If you dont have fow or daze leading with shaman can spell your doom. If you fetched for UGS and they slam blood moon you have exactly one DRS mana activation for the rest of the game and wont be fetching at all.
You gotta lead with fetch into island to get a realiable source of non-red mana.
It been a while since a played a tournament so I took my slightly updated list for a spin at the LGS.
Decklist: 60/15
Lands: 18
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
Creatures: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Sultai Scavenger
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells: 30
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Mirri's Guile
Sideboard: 15
1 Golgari Charm
1 Terminate
2 Pyroblast
1 Bitterblossom
1 Submerge
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Divert
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Forked Bolt
Round 1: BR Reanimator > 2-1
Game 1 got kicked by Grisselbrand
SB: -4 Bolt, -2 Push. +1 Cage, +1 Terminate, +1 Blossom, +1 Needle, +1 Divert, +1 Extraction
Game 2 I managed to stall and win
Game 3 I managed to destroy the only red mana on his side to be able to activate his Lavamancer. While he drew air a couple of turns (really needing that red mana to kill the Deathrite), I won.
Round 2: Chech Pile/BUG control > 1-2
First time I got this matchup and I proberly made some poor choices. Also drew really awkward since we had a deckcheck and the first few games are always a mess for me then...
Game 1: He got out Jace and Lili Last Hope and my side of the board is just empty so I scoop for the next game.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 Daze, -1 Pierce. +2 Pyroblast, +1 Charm, +1 Needle, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 TNN
Game 2: I get a better hold on the game and fly over with Scavanger and a Delver.
Game 3: Lost control of the game and ended up against the planeswalkers again while I died very, very slowly.
Round 3: Grixis Delver (stock list) > 2-0
Game 1: I got more control in the game and fly with either Delver or Scavenger for the win.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 Scavenger. +1 Divert, +1 Charm, +1 Terminate, +1 Forket Bolt, +1 TNN
Game 2: This one was an interesting match where I managed to turn the game in my favor after hitting his Pyromancer and token with a Forked Bolt before the field filled up.
Round 4: Elves > 2-0
Game 1: I get a really aggressive start with Deathrite Turn 1 followed by 2 Delvers Turn 2 who flip blindly while I manage to kill and counter some key cards.
SB: -4 Stifle, -1 Wasteland, -1 Scavenger, -1 Daze. +1 Needle, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Charm, +1 Submerge, +1 TNN, +1 Cage, +1 Terminate
Game 2: I manage to keep control enough to fly over the tiny green critters.
Round 5: Lands (2-1)
I used all my luck cards winning this match-up at the end.
Game 1: Got wrecked by recurring ghost quarters and tabernacle so I scoop.
SB: -3 Bolt, -2 Push. +1 Extraction, +1 Blossom, +1 Needle, +1 TNN, +1 Submerge
Game 2: I manage to get a Needle on Tricket preventing from recurring Loam instantly and manage to get some control using Deathrite. Scavenger flies in for the win since it takes two Punishing Fires to kill it, witch I prevent form happening.
SB: -1 Bolt. +1 Grudge (saw some Trinispheres being dredged)
Game 3: Got lucky and Extracted Loam on turn 1. Later I found myself facing Molten Vortex, Punishing Fires and a Maze of Ith... Got lucky and found TNN to ride to victory next to a Scavenger that got passed the Maze on my final attack turn of the round when I got my hands on a wasteland.
Top 4: BUG > 1-2
I think I messed up sideboarding here since I expected to face another Chech-Pile rather then BUG.
Game 1: I manage to race 2 TNN with a Scavenger that landed faster.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 Daze, -1 Pierce. +2 Pyroblast, +1 Charm, +1 Needle, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 TNN
Game 2: Got control of the game until I got wrecked by multiple Hyms (should have kept all 3 Pierce in and add the Divert, but I didn't...)
Game 3: Got control and then again wrecked by Hyms... Really should have changed my boarding game
Overall happy with the deck.
I think it's time to retire good ol' Submerge from the SB and replace it with something else, not sure what though. I always found myself struggling to get good value out of this card and end up using it to "save" one of my own creatures.
Mirri's Guile preformed really nice. Got me back in the game after mulling to 5 and dropping it turn 1 with a questionable hand.
Anyone got some tips/suggestions?
Don't think it is the right way to attack the Moon Decks as it does not help you with Deathrite Shaman nor with the Ancient Grudges and Pyromancers.
If you really want to attack the Moon Stompy Decks I think a misers Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast seems reasonable, as it can counter or destroy all red Cards in the Deck if you are not under a Chalice.
How do we play against Red Stompy? It is a very complicated match, which we can remove from the main?
Yeah. After some testing with moon stompy, I can agree to you on this. Eron, do you think cabal therapy is a good card agaisnt them? I took it out postboard when on the draw, my reason is that they would quickly play out all they have and then play a topdeck game. But again I am not sure of this. And would you play cabal therapy on the play in this match-up?
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
I am totally with you. On the play you can try to get the Blood Moon or Chalice of the Void with the Cabal Therapy but on the draw it is too slow, especially if they land the Chalice on Turn 1. I normally tend to cut 2 TNN (double Blue is very hard to get) for 2 Ancient Grudge. That's it! If you have additional Cards like Abrade, Kolaghan's Command or Dismember you can bring them in as well and can cut Forked Bolt or a Wasteland for them.
I really think Hydroblast and maybe a third Artifact destruction Spell is the best way to attack the Moon Stompy Deck with our strategy.
A fourth pyromancer isnt bad either
I have been main decking one Abrade in the Forked Bolt slot and having pretty good results. Made top four at a local cash tourney and won another.
Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.
~ Mohandas Gandhi
Pick up those Goyfs and Stifles boys DRS is banned.
You misspelled Kess
Pretty sure I meant this Archetype is dead go play Grixis Control or RUG Delver.
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