I have never had any problems against Death and Taxes with Grixis Delver. Could you enlighten me a bit?Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Very similiar to the direction I was taking the deck, mostly because I liked how it played very closely to old RUG delver lists from back in the day. A few thoughts/questions:
- How is Badlands for you? The deck is still ~50% blue, so I'm curious why this isn't another Volc/USea/Trop. Plus it doesn't play very nicely with Daze.
- How does Tombstalker compare to Gurmag Angler? I've won a lot of games off the back of Angler and the single black helps with mana. I used to jam Tombstalker in BUG Delver but that deck is set up to easily achieve BB.
- Has the Fatal Push felt good? I like the idea of Fatal Push, but always appreciated the ability of burn spells to go to the dome. Though clearing out creatures with toughness >3 is a pretty useful trick.
I think the Badlands is specifically there due to Stalker. I personally like stalker a lot, but I can understand that you often need a living DRS or a nice land config to get him. Gurmag is good, but the TNN is common right now. Stalker is a tried and true beater that gets over opposing Gurmags, Goyfs, Pyros, and TNN. If you are in the Mirror, flying matters a huge amount.
My experience has been I win some games due to flying, and lose the occasional game due to BB or needing an extra mana for [spell or daze or w/e.] Gurmag is fine, but I really thing that he's in a bad place right now because Dark Bant, Esper, Delvers, Stoneblades, etc.. are all cramming TNNs; and popular decks are Grixis and Dark Bant in some of the data that's come out, which both have lots of game against Gurmag (again, pyro tokens.) Personally I'd be looking for ways to make him work.
Lastly, I believe Push is there to make Stalker more usable since you'll want to fetch red as a splash for Pyro, rather than fetch it early as a means for removal. This allows him to fetch black T1, fetch USea T2 and be covered for stalker T3/T4. Jamming stalker into your list without the above considerations may well work, but he's designed his deck to be friendly to the giant Demon to steal games from the mirror and such. NOTE: This is also why badlands is there: fetch for Bolt T1, BB by T2/T3
EDIT: I should mention, i do realize that you weren't talking to me, but hey.. I like typing.
Tescrin's pretty much nailed it to a T, cheers mate
- Tombstalker is dope and crushes the random fair matchups like DnT, Elves, Pyromancer.Dec, even stuff like Nic Fit. Having a deck with only evasive threats is wonderful. It can also buy you a turn against Marit Lage which has come up plenty of times for me. The 2 cmc vs 1cmc of Gurmag is obviously a consideration, and Sean doesn't like the BB of Tombstalker but I don't find it to be an issue. Probably because I grew up in Legacy playing Goblins where he played Canadian
- having six 1cmc removal spells is amazing in the fair matchups but not a huge liability in the unfair matchups because only 2 of them do nothing. Push killing stuff like Goyf/Thoughtknot Seer or random dudes with a Sword of Fire and Ice is also really nice.
- Badlands is sometimes clunky but it's never been big enough of an issue for me to want to cut it. When you curve out your mana Sea -> Volc -> Badlands, the deck feels really smooth.
I came to this style of list after moving away from BURG because I found it too clunky. With BURG, I often had the issue of having Sea, Trop and Volc in play, and needing to ponder into a removal spell. Far too often I would find Decay when I tapped Trop or Bolt when I tapped Volc. There's no real skill to that, it's just hedging bets and using statistics but Magic is full of variance. Badlands prevents you from having that issue. Really though, and as Tescrin said, casting Tombstalker is the main reason why I started playing the Badlands.
- @Kylis: A competent DnT pilot should definitely be favoured against all Delver decks except for maybe UWR. I have beaten many Delver players with a single Mom and Serra Avenger, and that's not to even mention the games where DnT does more powerful things than that.
Ithink it's closer to even with "stock" Grixis. There are so many opportunities for 2 for 1s against d&t.
Won the Platinum EE Qualifier at #THEBEARDEDDRAGON. Will post a tournament report when I have more time but I played vs 4C Deathblade, Edlrazi, BUG Value, BUG Delver, and 5 Grixis Delver Mirrors!!
Mainboard was
4 Delver
4 DRS
3 Young Pyro
2 Gurmag
1 Snapcaster
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
3 Gutaxian Probe
8 U Fetch
3 Volcanic
2 Sea
1 Trop
4 Wasteland
Sideboard was
1 Fatal Push
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Jitte
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
Nice job! That list looks nice, and it seems you're taking more advantage of stifle via snap and a second pierce.
Also, I'm still having a lot of trouble against storm. I play the stifle version, but for some reason I just can't beat discard spells. The one angle of attack where it makes me wish I played the therapy version. Any tips?
Storm is just a bad matchup for Delver decks with only blue disruption. In a metagame with a lot of Storm, I'd just play the Therapy version.
I wonder then, would you say it's safe to say the therapy version is the best choice for GP Vegas?
I honestly don't know. The Therapy version is great against combo, but Stifle is better in the mirror and against those greedy Bant/Deathblade and Grixis Control decks. Personally, I prefer MD Therapy, but it's close. In the last couple of leagues I played, Stifle would have been better.
In general I think that counters are better against an open meta because they work against anything. Stifle is best when it is stopping Fetches, but there are a ton of triggered and activated abilities worth countering. Cabal Therapy is good if you can name well with it or if you know what the decks you are playing run. There are a ton of similar looking decks that execute very different game plans (anything with DRS, anything that leads Island -> Ponder, anything that plays a blue fetch but doesn't crack, etc.) so your T1/2 Therapy calls might be off. That being said Therapy/Probe synergize much better with Young Pyromancer whereas counters are much more lackluster with him. It is also probably a playstyle/preference call as well, I jammed a bunch of RUG Delver back in the day so the Stifle version does more work for me as I know how to play that shell.
I have moved to 4 stifles and more counterspells, I looove Stifle-ing fetch lands, I also put a sulfuric vortex main until I can pick up another TNN, I figure a clock is a clock, and I never see burn in my meta. Also life gain prevention.
Now Playing:
Dark depths
Reanimator
MUD
Disclaimer: The above person does not claim to have knowledge pertaining to the following subject: anything. Thus, said person may not be held liable for any mishaps/explosions that his advice incurs.
A few quick questions from my netdecking:
Almost every deck runs 3-4 Gitaxian Probe from the lists on MTGTop8. Granted, playing online is different from paper magic but I still don't understand it. While seeing your opponent's hand is nice, it drastically cuts down on the number of extra maindeck counters you can run. Maybe I'm more aware of this due to my combo-heavy meta, but I just don't see the benefit. I tested it some online and the information was useful, it just never felt essential. I really like the 2/2 Pierce/Snare split, it feels very balanced to me. I'm also playing a Stifle list, so maybe this is just a playstyle thing?
Almost all of the lists I see online are running 14 creatures, which is something I've never particularly understood. Maybe I'm just coming from RUG Delver with a very tight group of 12 creatures, but again running up to 14 creatures requires me to cut other useful spells I'd rather have. I've found space for a 13th creature, but I can't imagine adding others. None of our creatures have shroud and outside of Gurmag Angler, they are all pretty fragile but I haven't felt like I was running out of threats. Any thoughts here?
Also regarding creatures: I'm pretty happy with the the core of 4 DRS/Delver, 2 Gurmag but beyond those 10 I'm not terribly happy with my options. Most of the lists I see run 2-4 Young Pyromancer, which I have mentioned my problems with elsewhere in the thread. Simply put, I just never get a ton of value out of him. The other option is True-Name Nemesis which is a house when you can land it, but 3 mana can be a lot for a tempo deck to muster. This is especially true in the MUs where you need TNN the most because many of those fair decks run Wasteland. Again, I'm curious to get other's thoughts on this piece, because I haven't found a combination I'm really happy with yet.
It sure does seem that the probe therapy pyro is the shell that has the most synergy, and stifle belongs in a different build, something more similar to Sean Brown's list (MTG goldfish) a list which eschews probe and pyro.
It just feels good to have the resilience of the pyro build, but overall I echo these sentiments.
I agree with what you say, but you also have to consider the upsides of Peezy: it allows you to run Therapies somewhere in the 75 that make the deck able to compete against combo decks. Without them you'll struggle a lot, just like other delver decks. Other than that, Peezy is a win condition that lets you evade Baleful Strix, which is a pain for delver decks. I hate TNN for its clunkyness and inefficiency and I feel Peezy is really required if we want a resilient threat.
Yes, it has the downside of forcing you to "waste" 4 slots on probes but the upsides are more relevant in my opinion
"You must believe you are the best, and then make sure you are" Bill Shankly
Hey all. This is Brenden McCarley. I've been playing Grixis Delver for a long time including an SCG Open Top 8 with the deck in November. I won a Platinum EE Qualifier on Saturday with the deck winning me a Time Walk and free entry + byes to EE7, as well as top 8ed the Quest For Power event on Sunday.
My list was as follows
4Delver of Secrets
4 Deahrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Snapcaster MAge
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard was
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Umexawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
My events went as followed
Win a Walk EE Platinum
Round 1 (2-?)
I honestly don't remember what I played against but I do know that I won this round
Round 2 BUg Something (2-0)
Game 1 I stifle a fetch and bolt his Birds of Paradise and he doesn't get anything going. Unsure what he is playing as I am not familiar with a Birds of Paradise Bug Deck.
Game 2 He misses on land drops and a wasteland gets me the time I need for Delver and Deathrite to win.
Round 3 Grixis Delver (2-0)
Game 1 I win the die roll and have T1 DRS into T2 Pyromancer Bolt your DRS with Daze backup. Game ends shortly after
Game 2 I probe him and see he boarded in Surgical Extraction. PLay around it all day and end up killing him with Delvers.
Round 4 Jon Goss on Esper Deathblade (2-1)
Jon is a carmate of mine and he also top 8ed both events.
Game 1 I go wild with pyromancer and he can't answer it.
Games 2 and 3 come down to him having zealous to clean up pyromancer and also a SFM to clean up the game.
Round 5 Grixis Delver (2-1)
Game 1 I get him to 2 and can't push in the last points of damage. Vendilion Clique ends up beating me down.
Game 2 I stifle a fetch and wasteland him and he is off of lands for a bit, giving me time to recover.
Game 3 I get a jitte online and that's good enough to win.
Round 6 Eldrazi (2-1)
Game 1 I have a quick start and win the race thanks to a topdecked bolt.
Game 2 I mulligan aggresively and we play a close game but I can't attack him because I am dead on the swingback and he draws creatures to kill me.
Game 3 I have 2 Pyromancers and a wasteland. I bolt his Eldrazi Displacer and then Therapy him and that is good enough to win.
After 6 rounds of swiss I was in first place! Being able to play first in all 3 matches is great especially when you are on a stifle deck.
Top 8 Kevin "Daddy" Jones on Grixis Delver (2-0)
Games 1 and 2 I just draw extremely well and he can't do anything.
Top 4 Ryan Phraner on Grixis Delver (2-0)
Games 1 and 2 end up just being a straight race and my cantrips found bolt while his didn't.
Finals Joe Stempo on Bug Delverish Stuff (feat. Liliana the Last Hope) 2-0
Game 1 he mulligans and keeps a hand with only wasteland and he misses too many land drops.
Game 2 He gets his fetchland stifled and gets his bayou wasted.
I ended up winning the Time Walk!!
I didn't take many notes from the Quest for Power Recall but I beat D&T, Maverick, R/B Reanimator, BUg, and 2 other decks I can't remember. Lost to Jon Goss in top 8 again.
That's a good point. Young peezy is probably the reason to play grixis delver, next to angler I suppose.
I think its hard to really find "sacred cows" for this deck, or any other, save can trips and counters. With that being said, if we expect a lot of combo it might just be better to play the classic therapy version. But play to your strengths too. Thoughtseize (when thinking of a peezy-less version) really doesn't compare, although it's slightly easier to play.
Then you must consider the mirror match, that's the biggest reason to play LewisCBRs list.
It could pretty much go either way. I just know that there's times when I do the therapy trick with peezy when facing storm, and I'm like, "I cannot lose"
Then, I un tap with a flipped delver/drs facing an un cracked fetch or something (fair mu) and I feel the same way.
you could play with therapy in the board, but your configuration is less supportive for them, 2 peezy, 3 probe and 2tnn.
Go figure.
Gitaxian Probe does alot of little things for the deck:
-triggers pyromancer for free
-sorcery card type to flip delver
-fills the graveyard to fuel delve for gurmag angler
-improves the effectiveness of cabal therapy
-improves the effectiveness of wasteland since you know what colors you need to take your opponent off of
-facilitates the choice between casting threat, cantrip, or holding up mana
On the creature suite:
-Tempo decks need a clock, and sometimes one threat isn't enough. Honestly, I'd kill to be in your shoes when you say you haven't been running out of threats...
-Pyromancer gives you a way to go wide when your creatures would be outclassed and gives you value just for playing magic that sticks around even after its gone. I haven't decided if i like 2 or 3 of the card in the deck yet.
-TNN is the stickiest threat in the deck. It's been a great closer for me when the board gets clogged or my opponent answered all of my other threats. I understand your concerns of casting a 3 drop in the face of wastelands, but I have not had a problem casting the card yet, and it's been worth it almost every time. I ran the 2nd TNN in place of the 3rd pyromancer and liked it alot.
-casting multiple gurmags in a game can sometimes be a challenge, therefore I can't see running more than 2.
Current Depths List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bg-hexmage-depths/
Probe is kinda a weird glue that holds a lot of parts of the deck together. It's a free spell, which is great for YP. It's also a "combo" with Cabal Therapy, which is a great card with YP. Being a free spell is also good for filling up your graveyard and powering out a Gurmag Angler, it helps you fill up the yard faster than if you were playing more permission. I also think the free information is just good in a deck like Delver where you win on tempo and quickness rather than individual card quality. Having perfect info helps you figure out the particular angle you need to exploit in a game. When I was starting out playing RUG Delver years ago I played some probes just because it helped me narrow in on an angle of attack. As I got better, I dropped them because there was no other obvious synergy in RUG (other than helping you hit threshold fast I guess). But here, Probe has a ton of synergy with your other cards. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to not play it though, that's the beauty of grixis delver, you can really temper it to your particular style.
From nothing came teeth.
Another minor (but relevant) upside is that you can pitch Probe to a revealed Chancellor of the Annex tax in order to FoW or otherwise counter Reanimator combo.
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