[Deck] TDS - The Dark Tendrils

[emidln]

Because you will have 4 Dark Petitions in your deck, but probably not 4 Ad Nauseams.
In the typical ANT list you play 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 at the most, because the nature of the card doesn't allow you to play many high costs in your deck. Dark Petition doesn't have this restriction, so you could even play Force of Wills, like in the Vintage version of doomsday.

If you want to play Force of Wills in your maindeck with multiple Doomsdays, you almost assuredly want 4x Dig Through Time, 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, and 4x Gitaxian Probe. Before you play Force of Will though, I'm pretty sure you'd be playing Dazes maindeck (it stops the most problematic plays from Storm's perspective, which is aggressive hatebear/counterbalance/chalices/trinispheres. I don't think you want to play Force of Will though, as it's pretty rare that opponents play respectable hate in g1 if they aren't playing Counterbalance or Chalice. Outside of those two cards (and the uncommon game-winning, unprotected combo piece), basically no card is worth 2 for 1ing yourself with a storm deck. Postboard, other things become scary (and Force is pretty reasonable in the sideboard of a Doomsday deck from recent experience). Maindeck, I'd rather have a combination of Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy and Dazes if I'm looking to maximize my mana.

What makes a 3BB way to cast Doomsday #5-8 better than splitting it up over two turns for 1R + BBB or in a single turn for 1RBBB? This is a serious question as the entire purpose of Doomsday in Legacy is to tutor for and abuse Lion's Eye Diamond (pretty easy to win when you cast 2-4 black lotus per game). With Burning Wish, I can fully abuse LED to pay for Doomsday, leading to me playing more cantrips (which trade for LEDs) instead of Cabal Rituals. More cantrips lead to more consistent games (and further fuel Dig Through Times if you're playing along at home).

The answer is probably Past in Flames, but Past in Flames seems very at odds with Doomsday (one wants rituals, the other wants cantrips). Further, without Lab Maniac, Burning Wishes, or Ill-Gotten Gains, you cannot aggressive cantrip into a pass the turn pile.

[Best Case Pass the Turn Pile Scenario w/o LM/BW/IGG)

[Top]
IU
DR
DR
PiF
Probe
ToA
[Bottom]

(Obviously you need to start the turn with one in your hand or graveyard (not IU/DR in yard)).

BUUR for 18 lifeloss and needing one of DR/IU/PiF/Cantrip (assuming Probe here for mana reasons)/ToA in hand next turn for a pass the turn pile is skeeeeetchy.

Being unable to aggressively Doomsday limits how your cantrips play (aggressive cantrips are good for PiF, bad for Doomsday) while making it very difficult to Doomsday through otherwise simple hate like Gaddock Teeg, Chalice @ 1, Chalice @ 0, etc.

I'll bow out here as I'm not saying you should be playing Doomsday, but I'm extremely skeptical that you'd ever want a Legacy Doomsday deck with fewer than 4 Doomsday, 4 SDT and fewer than 17 draw spells. Playing less than that seems to lead to a lot of situations where you can Doomsday, but it won't win the game.

[iPhone7]

So the main benefits of adding Dark Petition to the deck are that it allows you to play Force of Will and Dig Through Time. By doing so we sacrifice the explosiveness of LED and Lion's Eye Diamond, and become more vulnerable to graveyard hate. I think that the best way to balance this is to add Rite of Flames and Burning Wishes to add more fast mana and ability to deal with hate. Here's my current list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Dark Petition
3 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Dig Through Time
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Cheons
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Void Snare

This list has been ok so far but could certainly use some tuning.

[Lemnear]

So the main benefits of adding Dark Petition to the deck are that it allows you to play Force of Will and Dig Through Time.

You still don't get it. Dark Petition is a very expensive and committing way of settin up Doomsday which requires you to run Cabal Ritual. Cabal Ritual however interacts very poorly with Dig Through Time (which is able to setup Doomsday by itself and ivalidating the whole Cabal ritual + Dark Petition nonsense in the process). Dark Petition and Dig Through Time DO NOT BELONG IN THE SAME LIST. You want to maximize the cantripping in this deck (to access doomsday) and not create a further redundancy of manaacceleration, which is Doomsdays job

[Pelikanudo]

@Stormers:

I've been thinking in adding a RoFilth to the list but I dont know what to take:

a) maybe 1 DD? - Im not sure then if the deck will lack of enough threats..
b) Maybe 1 Lotus petal? I really dont want to make the deck slower... I will only gain +2 mana in the 3rd turn.... and it is like having a petal for the 2nd turn....
c) maybe 1 land??

Please let me know your opinions!

[Lemnear]

@Stormers:

I've been thinking in adding a RoFilth to the list but I dont know what to take:

a) maybe 1 DD? - Im not sure then if the deck will lack of enough threats..
b) Maybe 1 Lotus petal? I really dont want to make the deck slower... I will only gain +2 mana in the 3rd turn.... and it is like having a petal for the 2nd turn....
c) maybe 1 land??

Please let me know your opinions!

I would stop trying to force a non-existing niche and non-working hybrid between the current iteration of Doomsday and ANT. The concepts don't work together even if they both run Dark Ritual.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Interesting, first time seeing this Dark Petition card.


In all honesty, the first thing that actually comes to mind in abusing this card is something more like a Trainwreck control deck that sits back and casts removal, but can use the Dark Petition to tutor and play a Liliana, Ensnaring Bridge, or some sort of answer in a whim. For storm, it's far worse than Ad Nauseum, but for a control deck it's absolute gold.

[Pelikanudo]

I would stop trying to force a non-existing niche and non-working hybrid between the current iteration of Doomsday and ANT. The concepts don't work together even if
they both run Dark Ritual.

you're absolutly wrong when you say that DD and ANT doesn't work in conjuntion, long time ago a deck which used both DD and Ad Nauseam worked. sure that you'll argue that this happened long time ago and the same could be applicable to full DD archetypes, but I think DD is not played because of its difficulty, I can guarranty that a DD build is strong in you test it. the approach is just similar but instead Ad Nauseam I use PiF - sure more grave dependant but this is something I need to test. I hope someday you see me in TC Decks reaching some top 8 at my monthly tournaments with this deck...

Apart would you answer my question? I think moving 1 bayou to the side and adding 1RoF is the right move, but not sure...

[Lemnear]

you're absolutly wrong when you say that DD and ANT doesn't work in conjuntion, long time ago a deck which used both DD and Ad Nauseam worked. sure that you'll argue that this happened long time ago and the same could be applicable to full DD archetypes, but I think DD is not played because of its difficulty, I can guarranty that a DD build is strong in you test it. the approach is just similar but instead Ad Nauseam I use PiF - sure more grave dependant but this is something I need to test. I hope someday you see me in TC Decks reaching some top 8 at my monthly tournaments with this deck...

Apart would you answer my question? I think moving 1 bayou to the side and adding 1RoF is the right move, but not sure...

Doomsday has the merrit of being essentially a three-card-combo between Ritual/DD/draw-effect which is a fact you cannot get around and is barely able to with without it's namesake card while still being weak to the usual storm hate which is the reason it doesn't see play. The point about "difficulty" is a hoax as you use in Vintage and Legacy a maximum of 4 different Standard piles, but remembering those seems to be that difficult for a large potion of players. It's ridiculous, really. If you look at ANt or S&T you see that those decks are much easier in terms of requirements to win, but DTT as cardadvantage engine AND Tutor might revive Doomsday, but Dark Petition dös not adress the problems at all.

I'm very active in the Doomsday thread and pushing the DTT + Doomsday + LabMan build as it is compact & clear. I hope you don't try to draw parallels betweena a cardadvantage engine like AN and a conditional Tutor...

[Pelikanudo]

Doomsday has the merrit of being essentially a three-card-combo between Ritual/DD/draw-effect which is a fact you cannot get around and is barely able to with without it's namesake card while still being weak to the usual storm hate which is the reason it doesn't see play. The point about "difficulty" is a hoax as you use in Vintage and Legacy a maximum of 4 different Standard piles, but remembering those seems to be that difficult for a large potion of players. It's ridiculous, really. If you look at ANt or S&T you see that those decks are much easier in terms of requirements to win, but DTT as cardadvantage engine AND Tutor might revive Doomsday, but Dark Petition dös not adress the problems at all.

I'm very active in the Doomsday thread and pushing the DTT + Doomsday + LabMan build as it is compact & clear. I hope you don't try to draw parallels betweena a cardadvantage engine like AN and a conditional Tutor...

It seems to me contradictory that you bet on DTT plus DD and not on D.P. plus DD OR PiF.
DTT is much more G.Y. dependant and much more slower than D.P.
the differences are not that much... 2 DD+1 B.W. < 4 DD in terms of Threat numbers With no G.Y. Dependancy (I'll remark that you'll need to pay the tough 9 mana with DTT, 5 only with D.P involving RiP scenarios)

Sure if you play a torunament you most of the times need 4 piles to work but if you need to win a specific match up the difficulty comes when you need to make Piles on the fly, I remember when I built my DD deck and reached top 8, my feeling was: this was likely the deck which limits the most the poker factor of MTG. Still prefer playing TES as the statistics calculations involved just makes me addict... sometimes I just guess the card I'm going to draw man!

EDIT: Well assuming you hate this build, pleeease could you answer my question I'll win a torunament with this boy! What do you bet?

[Lemnear]

EDIT: Well assuming you hate this build, pleeease could you answer my question I'll win a torunament with this boy! What do you bet?

Why do you ask ME for advice at the same time you ignore it in order to promote your build? I'd cut a DP first because drawing it while you already have Doomsday or drawing a second copy is iffy which is basically a similar Problem you took as reason to not run 4 Doomsdays, except that it's even worse. Why should I pick one of the three options you presented with neither making sense for me? Don't you see that you try to justify playing a 5cc setup Spell to Tutor for a 3cc setup Spell instead of running more of the 3cc setup Spell in the first place?

[Pelikanudo]

Why do you ask ME for advice at the same time you ignore it in order to promote your build? I'd cut a DP first because drawing it while you already have Doomsday or drawing a second copy is iffy which is basically a similar Problem you took as reason to not run 4 Doomsdays, except that it's even worse. Why should I pick one of the three options you presented with neither making sense for me? Don't you see that you try to justify playing a 5cc setup Spell to Tutor for a 3cc setup Spell instead of running more of the 3cc setup Spell in the first place?

Thanks for your answer
DDFT with ANT didn't run 4 DD long time ago either.
maybe it makes sense to cut 1 DD then.
I will make tests on -1DD or -1 Land and see... by the moment the results have been quite impressive...

[emidln]

Thanks for your answer
DDFT with ANT didn't run 4 DD long time ago either.
maybe it makes sense to cut 1 DD then.
I will make tests on -1DD or -1 Land and see... by the moment the results have been quite impressive...

The ddant lists also had 4 mystical tutor.